[BlackHillsSledder]

Jd isn’t after cat at all. There is a bunch of tech in the division that cat is in that puts jd to shame. It’s a hard pill swallow but cat is dead

I guess if Cat is really dead that makes me feel stupid buying a new Catalyst Riot, but I think it'll be a good sled and I'll enjoy it.

 

[ziemann]

Jd isn’t after cat at all. There is a bunch of tech in the division that cat is in that puts jd to shame. It’s a hard pill swallow but cat is dead

@GregB seems to be the only person looking at this realistically. Cat has very little to offer to JD or anyone else for that matter. Cat's Dirt products are near the bottom of the marketplace, Cat has a very weak dealer network, mediocre sales, and then there's the slow painful death of snowmobiling as a sport. It's not realistic that JD is going to have an interest in Cat- unless it is being sold as a fire sale..... There's some limited manufacturing capacity that could be leveraged, but JD's not in the business of losing money......so, I'm not sure why anyone thinks this is realistic?

 

[gbarchives-eltigre]

I'm not a big Textron fanboy or drinking the Kool-aid as you would like to assume I am, I'm engaging in devils advocate and looking at the reality of Arctic cat as a business and where it would be right now (Bankrupt during Covid and sold to Polaris and Bombardier in pieces, with most of the staff going wherever they could find a job) Arctic Cat was struggling financially before Textron bought them, or they wouldn't have been for sale. Arctic Cat had $10mil in the bank and roughly $75ml in debt when Textron bought them, math states that if Textron didn't buy them they would not have survived till Covid let alone through Covid.

Cite me a source for the firing of engineers please? I see lots of retirement announcements, whether they were forced or not is tough to say without a source.

Everyone keeps bringing up Polaris in the 1980s... that was 44 years ago... at the start of an economic crash the world over. Cool story, 44 years ago is 44 years ago, lots of things have changed, I'm sure most/all of the Textron board of directors has changed since the 1980s.

Skidoo profit is down in the last year, Skidoo sales are down. Skidoo is also thinning it's combinations, so is Polaris, sure they still have sales, but they are taking hits like everyone else, they are making changes and adjustments just like everyone else we just might not see them as openly on the surface.

Textron didn't divorce Suzuki, Arctic cat did... in 2010/2011....7 years before Textron was looking at buying cat, Textron happened to buy in at the end of the Suzuki supply agreement that was negotiated over 5 years prior, Arctic cat had already developed the C-tec engine to replace the Suzuki BEFORE Textron bought them. Arctic Cat began sinking their own ship before Textron got involved, I followed the financial numbers pretty regularly during those years.

Yes I agree fan cooled machines hold value, Yes cat should start making more of them, yes their utility segment is also currently suffering and has been for many years, yes the bearcat/norseman line would do good to have a bigger bore fanner than a 400, maybe the catalyst 600 engine will find it's way into a new utility chassis in a year or 2.

What are you using IFS as an acronym for? IFS = Independent front suspension, and has meant that as long as I've ever known. I'm not sure why you are talking about old IFS machines, sure they hold value, you can't get parts for most of them anymore, any brands. Most of the value in them currently is as salvage or for retro riders/kids machines. I'm not sure why 30+ year old IFS machines have become the topic of conversation.

Lots of folks stopped getting the old machines for their kids to learn on because they learn all the wrong habits on the older machines vs newer, with the rider forward/standup chassis direction of the skidoo rev chassis and the 05+ M series chassis the learning curve on the old machines to a newer machine is counterintuitive.

Again I'm not a Textron Fan-Boy, I've been a cat fan since the first time I got on a sled (old 96 panther in 2004, bearcat in 2004 also) but I'm not understanding how spreading a John Deere rumor that has been circulating off and on for over a decade is helping anything, especially when the likelihood of John Deere ponying up over $500mil for Cat from Textron is pretty slim. Also JD hasn't made a sled in 40 years, so how are they going to drive some miracle in innovation in a modern sled market? Clearly they saw their exit point and got off the sled train.

A more mutually beneficial arrangement (R&D Support and rebranding a certain line of cats to JD) seems more realistic and likely given the economic times and how JD's UTV/ATV Line looks from it's regularly fraudulent supplier. Would it be cool to see JD get back into the sled market? Sure! another competitor would be cool to drive innovation! Buying Cat doesn't make another competitor or drive innovation, it spends a pile of money overhauling management and rebranding a ton of stuff that could otherwise be spent on R&D during a potential turning point in market share.

Facing the facts, if Textron didn't buy cat when they did, this forum would be talking about finding aftermarket sources for parts, and wrecker listings to fix existing machines, instead of talking about new lineups coming out and what people don't like about the current direction of the company.

Edit: A cheap sled in ALL BRANDS is $11k anymore, I can barely get a 2016 550 fan cooled polaris for $9k USED where I am new is almost $14k. Cat didn't screw the sled market up, if you want to blame price hikes on anyone look at BRP ($30k for a sled? what?!?) or Polaris ($27k for a sled?!? What?!?!) Blame COVID Pricing insanity, and the other 2 majors for the rising prices, BRP has been hiking prices constantly for the last 7 years, the product hasn't changed much but the BRP logo costs $4k more than any other logo.

Yoooo chill man. Im not attacking you. But i have sources you dont through writing about sleds for decades. I bow to your rights to an opinion. No problems here.

 

[GregB]

With jd cutting jobs and moving production to Mexico, they aren’t buying cat for cat. They were probably looking for a subcontractor to make a certain gator cheap or get the autonomous technology out of textron. No jd dealer I have talked to had mentioned any kind of rumor of them buying arctic cat and none of them would be interested in selling arctic cat as there is zero money in it for them. Any jd dealer could pick up Arctic cat as a short line and not even blink an eye about it

 

[GregB]

I heard the most logical actual answer to this today. Jd toured multiple smaller manufacturers around the Midwest looking at possible subcontract partnerships in the future (some they use now, some they don’t) They were done around the same time as the cat tour. They were never looking to purchase any of those companies and were probably not interested in buying out cat.

 

[ziemann]

Lets stir the rumor mill some more....I heard that it wasn't JD afterall. It was Massey Ferguson/AGCO wanting to buy Cat out. LOLOL

Seriously tho, Cat has fulfilled contracts in the past (2007 MF in the pic as an example). @GregB is likely right on.

But a buy out? Not logical for a company like JD.

 

[Trail Ryder]

Too bad since Cat could benefit from John Deere's massive dealer network.

 

[GregB]

Lets stir the rumor mill some more....I heard that it wasn't JD afterall. It was Massey Ferguson/AGCO wanting to buy Cat out. LOLOL

Seriously tho, Cat has fulfilled contracts in the past (2007 MF in the pic as an example). @GregB is likely right on.

But a buy out? Not logical for a company like JD.

I am willing to bet those meetings were gathering information to make their recent decisions.

 

[Farrix]

I heard the most logical actual answer to this today. Jd toured multiple smaller manufacturers around the Midwest looking at possible subcontract partnerships in the future (some they use now, some they don’t) They were done around the same time as the cat tour. They were never looking to purchase any of those companies and were probably not interested in buying out cat.

I'm pretty sure I made a reference to something similar on page 1 when I mentioned that JD's current dirt manufacturer (IAS) isn't a clean company (Lawsuits and legal trouble) and they would potentially be looking at replacement options for future manufacturing.,

 

[moosesling]

More like one dealer now as Cook's has dropped Arctic Cat or closed altogether. The Rochester region used to have like 5 Cat dealers and now has zero.

If John Deere buys Arctic Cat, it doesn't need to offer Arctic Cat products at all John Deere dealers. And John Deere dealers wouldn't need to sell all Arctic Cat products (could be ATV and SXS only). They could also put geographic limitations on which John Deere dealers take on Arctic Cat products to protect the existing Arctic Cat dealer network.

One of things that always hurt Cat ATV and SXS sales was an even weaker dealer network South of the "snow zone". I think offering Arctic Cat products at "select" John Deere dealers would be GREAT for Arctic Cat and their sales volume.

When Textron bought Arctic Cat, they did not have strong dealer network, whereas John Deere (which is 4 times the size of Textron) has a VERY STRONG and present dealer network. If John Deere buys Cat, I think it will work out great for Arctic Cat.

In recent times, I have felt Arctic Cat snowmobiles had 2 main challenges:

• Weak Dealer Network
• Lack of Track Options on Pre-Ordered Sleds

A John Deere purchase could address at least one of those main challenges. I also imagine John Deere would have more pull with Camso too.

Textron is flipping huge, far larger than JD!
they build the V22 Osprey! Textron is easily 4 times larger in wealth than JD.

 

[SuperATV]

Just found this on another forum.

 

[stevem5215]

Yep, posted and reposted everywhere. Sad for AC people.

But, as has also been mentioned this am on other BB's there have been serious cuts at the other two manufacturers as well. Just not sent out publicly like Textron did. Which IMO hurt more.

 

[Trail Ryder]

Textron is flipping huge, far larger than JD!
they build the V22 Osprey! Textron is easily 4 times larger in wealth than JD.

I don't think so. Where did you get your numbers from???

In 2023 John Deere's annual sales was $61.25 billion, while Textron's 2023 annual sales were only $14 billion. John Deere's annual sales are MORE THAN 4 times that of Textron.

 

[ziemann]

Obviously the dirt segment is on life support. Sleds are doing well. Cat can't keep a factory open when there's no demand for their seasonally produced ATVs and utvs.

Given the reduction in workforce, Cat is pretty vulnerable if their Division isn't making money for Textron.

 

[GregB]

Obviously the dirt segment is on life support. Sleds are doing well. Cat can't keep a factory open when there's no demand for their seasonally produced ATVs and utvs.

Given the reduction in workforce, Cat is pretty vulnerable if their Division isn't making money for Textron.

Sleds aren’t doing well at all. Cat as a company financially is done. If it wasn’t for textron taking a loss on it they would have been done a while ago. I heard through the grape vine cat missed the brake even point by 10,000 units shipped for dirt and snow in 23. They aren’t in a good place. I hope they can recover

 

[Trail Ryder]

I just hope Cat pulls through this. It would SUCK to have the only choices be Polarisk and Ski-Don't.

 

[stevem5215]

Lots of doom and gloom on the message boards. Only time will tell if Textron keeps it alive. Companies typically aren't into charity cases though!

 

[ziemann]

Lots of doom and gloom on the message boards. Only time will tell if Textron keeps it alive. Companies typically aren't into charity cases though!

Exactly. Put yourself in Textron's shoes. Textron is in business to make money. Their Dirt products are not competitive at all. And altho the Catalyst is a great platform, lack of consistent snow isn't good for any of the manufacturers.

Lots of doom and gloom- I too struggle to see any up side for Cat. Put yourself in Textron's shoes.

 

[Thwopper1]

I personally see nothing to gain from John Deere buying Cat for either company, John Deere is currently in the middle of legal troubles with Right to Repair laws and class action lawsuits about their Ag segment.

John Deere doesn't even make their own UTV's/ATV's, a company called IAS Manufactures them and brands them as JD or as IAS, from what I can tell IAS is one of Textrons competition in the commercial UTV market, I've driven the JD UTVs, they are terrible, I don't see them as wanting to get into Snow again, unless they want to arrange a rebranding with Textron to have John Deere Snow machines made by Textron/Cat. I could see Textron trying to arrange an agreement to market the Textron Electric UTV's and Commercial UTV's as John Deere.

IAS, John Deeres manufacturer is in Blaine, MN. 288 miles away from Thief River Falls.
15 minutes of research says the owner of IAS has been involved in 3 rather large lawsuits in the last 25 years and lots of fraudulent play on the stock market, I could see JD trying to distance themselves from that manufacturing partner and move their builds elsewhere.

There could be a lot of business arrangements going on, and multiple active plays on the field, but Textron selling an acquired asset right after sinking hundreds of millions into R&D/debt to pass off any potential profit? I don't see that likely.

The more likely thing would be Cat rebranding their Utility snow segment as John Deere and having JD funnel some R&D into it.

The more i look into IAS as a whole, I'm actually surprised Textron hasn't just bought IAS directly, The company is not that large and exists in segments that would compliment Textron's aerospace divisions.




I honestly don't see what Textron has done in the last 5 years as "Running them into the ground" The only thing Textron has really done that has bothered me to any extent is discontinue a pile of 2005- parts, which even Honda and Polaris have done a lot of lately, (finding 2004 Honda suspension/driveline parts is getting to be a chore)

I think Textron did what they had to to, Cat was spread too thin across the segments...

Textron came in, and did what any major would do to a floundering company
1. Identify the market trends and economic trends - It didn't take a rocket scientist to see that the ATV/UTV/Snow Markets were getting bloated with trim packages/Engine combos
2. identify segments you can remain competitive in and have a reputation in. Snow/UTV
3. Identify waste. - having too many engine/trim packages in all segments, retooling factories for old model runs, paying licensing to manufacturers to maintain availability of parts for old old runs
4. Focus efforts - Pour R&D into UTV and Snow Segments, Cat was very competitive at KOH, which draws alot of attention in the UTV segment, for a few years, Cat UTVs don't sell great in my region but they sell better in the south.
5. bring things in house if possible

It's no different than Yamaha getting out of Snow, Yamaha not getting a 1000cc ATV until they had a proven utv engine to relocate into a smaller frame. It's no different than Suzuki not moving into the UTV Segment at all, and knowing where their ATV's sell and why they corner that market.

Textron came into a company spread thin and losing money, if Textron hadn't bought cat just before Covid, let's be honest with ourselves, Cat would probably have gone bankrupt/insolvent and been broken down to it's base parts and sold to their competition. We wouldn't be looking at a 600cc black hills edition that in my opinion looks very competitive, or at the 858 Catalyst, which also looks competitive. Cat's run was getting short

People can blame Textron for the Ctec 800 and Ctec2 800 era of sleds, but they were already designed and in build when Textron bought in, they can blame them for the floundering ATV Market, but the ATV Market has been floundering since the UTV market started releasing comparatively priced trail width 2 seaters (I can buy a Rzr 900 Eps trail for the same price as a black hills edition ATV, or a Grizzly 700).


Sorry I got carried away

Still dont like the way Arctic Cat sells thier sleds, way to pricey, oil pricey and parts.

 

[Krom]

Still dont like the way Arctic Cat sells thier sleds, way to pricey, oil pricey and parts.

same price or less, than any other company. And like it or not, they make far less profit per sled than doo, or poo simply because then sell only a small fraction of the units that the others do.