Out in the field, nothing runs like a Deere! Out in the snow, nothing runs like a Cat!!

It would be interesting to say the least.

 

Yes the rumor is hot right now. It seems like several companies were looking at purchasing it earlier this spring, but today the name John Deere has taken center stage. It doesn’t take too much of a genius to figure out that Textron wants out. The Catalyst just being released along with the new 858 means it’ll fetch about as much as they’ll ever get for it. The dirt side is weak right now, but the ATVs and sport SxS complement the JD Gator line nicely. If this rumor is true I’d say it’s a positive development for Arctic Cat riders. It will vastly improve the dealer situation and Cat needs better parts and service logistics. John Deere is much better at the consumer market as well. Textron is mostly a conglomerate that lives on commercial and government contracts. If this happens it would be a good thing.

I don’t know how reliable comments on Facebook are, but there are some employees and people with inside information that claim this is really going to happen. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.

 

If this is the case, I found Cats new logo

 

If you look at the shirt image that have been going around for the 6 months. the John deer logo isn’t correct and is a repo of an old shirt from back in the day someone pointed out. Rumor is probably as good as the Harley rumor running around about the same time as textron bought cat. We will find out soon enough

 

The logo is correct, but it's the old 1968-2000 logo. They used that one when they sold the throwback shirts because it was the one they used when they built sleds. Deere was selling the shirts themselves so I don't think they'd do it wrong. With that said, selling vintage snowmobile shirts using a theme from the 1979 Trailfire intro means little.

 

Read earlier that Deere reps were supposed to be in TRF on the 28th and guess some Textron reps as well.

 

That really doesn’t mean much. My old work top brass and jd top brass would meet every now and then they and never would tell anyone why. It was usually subcontract deal. The only possible reason I could see them buying cat is not for the arctic cat brand but for the industrial ev/hybrid technology textron has developed in the off road division. They may sell it if JD buys the whole off road division. textron has been light years a head of anyone in the equipment industry when it comes to that. The ag industry is just now catching up to what textron has been doing for at least 20 years. That technology can easily be adapted to tractors, skid steers, sxs, forestry equipment, you name it. the ac drive in the ez-go was the simplest version of it and that was the building block of what it is today. It would be interesting if this actually happens and they do in fact acquire cat.

 

I hope someone buys Arctic Cat that actually cares about the product! Textron is just running them into the ground, just like they did to Polaris, Homelite, etc.

 

I personally see nothing to gain from John Deere buying Cat for either company, John Deere is currently in the middle of legal troubles with Right to Repair laws and class action lawsuits about their Ag segment.

John Deere doesn't even make their own UTV's/ATV's, a company called IAS Manufactures them and brands them as JD or as IAS, from what I can tell IAS is one of Textrons competition in the commercial UTV market, I've driven the JD UTVs, they are terrible, I don't see them as wanting to get into Snow again, unless they want to arrange a rebranding with Textron to have John Deere Snow machines made by Textron/Cat. I could see Textron trying to arrange an agreement to market the Textron Electric UTV's and Commercial UTV's as John Deere.

IAS, John Deeres manufacturer is in Blaine, MN. 288 miles away from Thief River Falls.
15 minutes of research says the owner of IAS has been involved in 3 rather large lawsuits in the last 25 years and lots of fraudulent play on the stock market, I could see JD trying to distance themselves from that manufacturing partner and move their builds elsewhere.

There could be a lot of business arrangements going on, and multiple active plays on the field, but Textron selling an acquired asset right after sinking hundreds of millions into R&D/debt to pass off any potential profit? I don't see that likely.

The more likely thing would be Cat rebranding their Utility snow segment as John Deere and having JD funnel some R&D into it.

The more i look into IAS as a whole, I'm actually surprised Textron hasn't just bought IAS directly, The company is not that large and exists in segments that would compliment Textron's aerospace divisions.




I honestly don't see what Textron has done in the last 5 years as "Running them into the ground" The only thing Textron has really done that has bothered me to any extent is discontinue a pile of 2005- parts, which even Honda and Polaris have done a lot of lately, (finding 2004 Honda suspension/driveline parts is getting to be a chore)

I think Textron did what they had to to, Cat was spread too thin across the segments...

Textron came in, and did what any major would do to a floundering company
1. Identify the market trends and economic trends - It didn't take a rocket scientist to see that the ATV/UTV/Snow Markets were getting bloated with trim packages/Engine combos
2. identify segments you can remain competitive in and have a reputation in. Snow/UTV
3. Identify waste. - having too many engine/trim packages in all segments, retooling factories for old model runs, paying licensing to manufacturers to maintain availability of parts for old old runs
4. Focus efforts - Pour R&D into UTV and Snow Segments, Cat was very competitive at KOH, which draws alot of attention in the UTV segment, for a few years, Cat UTVs don't sell great in my region but they sell better in the south.
5. bring things in house if possible

It's no different than Yamaha getting out of Snow, Yamaha not getting a 1000cc ATV until they had a proven utv engine to relocate into a smaller frame. It's no different than Suzuki not moving into the UTV Segment at all, and knowing where their ATV's sell and why they corner that market.

Textron came into a company spread thin and losing money, if Textron hadn't bought cat just before Covid, let's be honest with ourselves, Cat would probably have gone bankrupt/insolvent and been broken down to it's base parts and sold to their competition. We wouldn't be looking at a 600cc black hills edition that in my opinion looks very competitive, or at the 858 Catalyst, which also looks competitive. Cat's run was getting short

People can blame Textron for the Ctec 800 and Ctec2 800 era of sleds, but they were already designed and in build when Textron bought in, they can blame them for the floundering ATV Market, but the ATV Market has been floundering since the UTV market started releasing comparatively priced trail width 2 seaters (I can buy a Rzr 900 Eps trail for the same price as a black hills edition ATV, or a Grizzly 700).


Sorry I got carried away

 

I also think Yamaha wanting to buy cat rumors are true. They partnered with cf moto and built a head quarters in Minnesota. The deal went bad and Yamaha said by and found someone else

 

Screwing long time dealers over with lack of delivery and lack of parts availability is not good management. Firing most of the long term engineering trust to save money is also bad management. I don’t drink the Textron Koolaid. Golf cart company has no business running a sled company. Their track record in the sled business is bad. Ask Polaris. Skidoo has a full line up of engine sizes and sleds and is still selling. Polaris too. I understand Arctic wanting to go their own way with engines, but the way the divorce from Suzuki was done was wrong. It bred distrust amongst the longtime fans. And now everything is a mountain sled or a mountain sled wannabe? A cheap Cat is 11 grand? Go to the swap meets sirs? What’s holding value? The IFS fan cooled Zs and Jags of 60hp and below that farmers can repair and train kids to ride on. ZR fan sno pros and basically any machine in good shape 600cc and under have stayed in the two to three thousand dollar range for five years out here in the East. Clearly there is a market for a proven IFS machine without the Star Wars styling! Not everyone rides mountains nor needs a sled 12 feet long.

 

I'm not a big Textron fanboy or drinking the Kool-aid as you would like to assume I am, I'm engaging in devils advocate and looking at the reality of Arctic cat as a business and where it would be right now (Bankrupt during Covid and sold to Polaris and Bombardier in pieces, with most of the staff going wherever they could find a job) Arctic Cat was struggling financially before Textron bought them, or they wouldn't have been for sale. Arctic Cat had $10mil in the bank and roughly $75ml in debt when Textron bought them, math states that if Textron didn't buy them they would not have survived till Covid let alone through Covid.

Cite me a source for the firing of engineers please? I see lots of retirement announcements, whether they were forced or not is tough to say without a source.

Everyone keeps bringing up Polaris in the 1980s... that was 44 years ago... at the start of an economic crash the world over. Cool story, 44 years ago is 44 years ago, lots of things have changed, I'm sure most/all of the Textron board of directors has changed since the 1980s.

Skidoo profit is down in the last year, Skidoo sales are down. Skidoo is also thinning it's combinations, so is Polaris, sure they still have sales, but they are taking hits like everyone else, they are making changes and adjustments just like everyone else we just might not see them as openly on the surface.

Textron didn't divorce Suzuki, Arctic cat did... in 2010/2011....7 years before Textron was looking at buying cat, Textron happened to buy in at the end of the Suzuki supply agreement that was negotiated over 5 years prior, Arctic cat had already developed the C-tec engine to replace the Suzuki BEFORE Textron bought them. Arctic Cat began sinking their own ship before Textron got involved, I followed the financial numbers pretty regularly during those years.

Yes I agree fan cooled machines hold value, Yes cat should start making more of them, yes their utility segment is also currently suffering and has been for many years, yes the bearcat/norseman line would do good to have a bigger bore fanner than a 400, maybe the catalyst 600 engine will find it's way into a new utility chassis in a year or 2.

What are you using IFS as an acronym for? IFS = Independent front suspension, and has meant that as long as I've ever known. I'm not sure why you are talking about old IFS machines, sure they hold value, you can't get parts for most of them anymore, any brands. Most of the value in them currently is as salvage or for retro riders/kids machines. I'm not sure why 30+ year old IFS machines have become the topic of conversation.

Lots of folks stopped getting the old machines for their kids to learn on because they learn all the wrong habits on the older machines vs newer, with the rider forward/standup chassis direction of the skidoo rev chassis and the 05+ M series chassis the learning curve on the old machines to a newer machine is counterintuitive.

Again I'm not a Textron Fan-Boy, I've been a cat fan since the first time I got on a sled (old 96 panther in 2004, bearcat in 2004 also) but I'm not understanding how spreading a John Deere rumor that has been circulating off and on for over a decade is helping anything, especially when the likelihood of John Deere ponying up over $500mil for Cat from Textron is pretty slim. Also JD hasn't made a sled in 40 years, so how are they going to drive some miracle in innovation in a modern sled market? Clearly they saw their exit point and got off the sled train.

A more mutually beneficial arrangement (R&D Support and rebranding a certain line of cats to JD) seems more realistic and likely given the economic times and how JD's UTV/ATV Line looks from it's regularly fraudulent supplier. Would it be cool to see JD get back into the sled market? Sure! another competitor would be cool to drive innovation! Buying Cat doesn't make another competitor or drive innovation, it spends a pile of money overhauling management and rebranding a ton of stuff that could otherwise be spent on R&D during a potential turning point in market share.

Facing the facts, if Textron didn't buy cat when they did, this forum would be talking about finding aftermarket sources for parts, and wrecker listings to fix existing machines, instead of talking about new lineups coming out and what people don't like about the current direction of the company.

Edit: A cheap sled in ALL BRANDS is $11k anymore, I can barely get a 2016 550 fan cooled polaris for $9k USED where I am new is almost $14k. Cat didn't screw the sled market up, if you want to blame price hikes on anyone look at BRP ($30k for a sled? what?!?) or Polaris ($27k for a sled?!? What?!?!) Blame COVID Pricing insanity, and the other 2 majors for the rising prices, BRP has been hiking prices constantly for the last 7 years, the product hasn't changed much but the BRP logo costs $4k more than any other logo.

 

This is on John Deere's website:

Ride The New Breed - Snowmobile Logo Long Sleeve Raglan with Hood | LP84922

 

 

I come down hard on this because I’m older with a longer memory. I remember a snowmobile company called Ski Daddler made by AMF. My dad was a dealer. Their machines were just as good as SkiDoo by 1970. Their race team was engineering in the field and working with Arctic for suspension design. However they were just one division in a huge conglomerate and the race team was a group of hot rodders and racers with no real degrees. They were ignored by management. Progress stagnated. A good engine company, Hirth, was summarily dismissed. Instead AMF went with pretty girls lying on pretty painted Harley sleds that were a huge sales flop. Because Harley name had sales clout. Harley quit racing and sat on their buns for five years. Then went away. Does this story seem familiar folks?

 

The gas crisis of the years in question didn't help any of them for sure. Ones with cash in the bank burned through it like it was water out of faucet. Everyone was in dire straits. This time with the lack of snow is similar to then and in the 80's when it happened as well. This will prove a test of meddle to see who lasts selling gazillion dollar sleds and who buys them as the interest rates are killing sales of everything expensive including expensive trucks who tow them.

 

It's a dumb rumor because it's summer and people like to talk.
To say John Deere knows a thing or two about snowmobiles. Just another dumb point to fuel a dumb rumor. They last. made sleds in the EIGHTIES. If there's still anyone at John Deere that had snowmobile involvement 40 years ago (doubtful), it surely means absolutely nothing as far as making a snowmobile in 2024.
But hey, I heard the scorpion gang is going on a reunion tour and thinking of buying cat. You read it on the internet so it must be true.

 

lol 100% if jd does anything with cat it will be a subcontract job for gators or they buy the whole division for the ev and atonomus tech. They don’t care anything cat has.

 

If it wasn't for the hooded sweat shirt for sale on John Deere's website that shows a silhouette of a Catalyst snowmobile, I never would have given this rumor a second thought.

But buying the Arctic Cat division from Textron would give John Deere their own lines of ATV, UTVs, Side by Sides, and snowmobiles overnight; and it would give the Arctic Cat brand a large and stable dealer network.

Ride The New Breed - Snowmobile Logo Long Sleeve Raglan with Hood | LP84922

 

If it wasn't for the hooded sweat shirt for sale on John Deere's website that shows a silhouette of a Catalyst snowmobile, I never would have given this rumor a second thought.

But buying the Arctic Cat division from Textron would give John Deere their own lines of ATV, UTVs, Side by Sides, and snowmobiles overnight; and it would give the Arctic Cat brand a large and stable dealer network.

Ride The New Breed - Snowmobile Logo Long Sleeve Raglan with Hood | LP84922

That is pretty interesting with the shirts.
If they bought cat, I wouldn't have a problem changing the dirt brand name. But if they canned the Arctic Cat name, that'd be a mistake and a sad sad day.

 

This is probably just a summer rumor for bored snowmobilers, but it’s certainly a believable rumor for several reasons. Will it happen? Not a clue. I’m not as quick to bash Textron because if they had not acquired Arctic Cat in 2017 it would be gone today as we know it. The brand might have been sold for pennies on the dollar to put on some little kids imported Chinese ATV, but that would have beef it. Arctic Cat was months away from bankruptcy in 2017 and there wasn’t going to be former executives doing an Arctco style start-up resurrection like in the early 80’s with the current market and manufacturing economics.

Deere has stated in the past they would like to increase production of light consumer goods. Now a past statement doesn’t mean much, but at one time it was on their mind as they started to move into big box. Those mowers you see at Lowe’s even the low end are built by John Deere. Gator production is contracted out because they don’t have the capacity at their Horicon, WI factory. Also, farmers and construction people are large markets for the snowmobile and sport dirt products. They have the money and their schedules usually work well for this type of recreation. If I had a dollar for every farmer or contractor I met out riding snowmobiles. On the dirt side they also use the products in their business especially for the utility models like the Gator. The problem is Deere doesn’t have sport models for their customers.

It’s actually an advantage for Deere that Cat has such a small dealer network right now. There would be John Deere dealers that would be happy to take on recreational products if it was an option offered to them. It helps drive traffic to the dealers in the off season. I doubt they’d change the branding of the snowmobiles away from Arctic Cat, but I could easily see the dirt products become John Deere. Using the John Deere brand on them is a lot different than Textron Off Road. Nobody knows what Textron is. It’s a parent company. John Deere is an extremely strong brand with tons of brand recognition. As far as an acquisition goes, Cat is healthy from an inventory standpoint. Ski-doo and Polaris have thousands of non current models sitting at dealers. Cat has a few hundred at best. Yes, long term Arctic Cat could fall like Yamaha did if they can’t build back market share at some point. At that point I could see BRP getting aggressive enough on Polaris they will also get out of snowmobiles. Ski-doo being the last brand left would be like a wet dream to the Doo fans even if prices went through the roof and product development stalled.

Regardless what happens I’m looking forward to riding my new Catalyst Riot 600. It’s a well engineered and built sled from everything I have seen. I’m excited to see how it performs. There was someone who wrote about taking a factory tour recently in TRF and the line workers commented they really liked building the Catalyst because it’s a much easier sled to build than the ProCross. I like hearing that. Simplicity is good.

 

Good points.

I think John Deere and their expansive dealer network would be GREAT for Arctic Cat. Locally, we had a lot of Arctic Cat riders switch to other brands just because we lost all of our Arctic Cat dealers.

 

Agreed. I live about 15 miles away from an excellent full line Arctic Cat dealer, but there are many people who do not. If my dealer wasn't here it would be hundreds of miles to find another Cat dealer.

 

Speaking just for the dirt side Arctic cat has lost a lot of sales when they dropped the heavy duty MRP racks and most of the accessories for them. It was the main reason I bought my 06 TRV. The ability to convert from 2up to single seat work horse was a huge selling point. I have not seen a new AC ATV's at any of our club events.

 

Cat's big issue with MRP components, in my opinion, was changing them every generation, my 2004 had modular MRP racks, nothing lined up from 2006+ stuff for my 2004 (i'm still meaning to weld extra box tubing on) then i believe they changed the points another time... if you're going to make decades of accessories make them forward/backwards compatible because that builds brand loyalty "i already spent $3000 on all my accessories, i'll buy another one"


I was very irritated when I got an 08 that had a gun boot, front box, and something else, and none of it would pin to my 04.

 

Thing is that Arctic Cat as a name still has good brand power. That would keep the name more than anything else.

 

Yes, compared to Textron.
But John Deere has very good brand power, especially in the dirt world. On the snow side, Arctic Cat branding would still be better overall as it is so iconic and legendary. But I could see them offering a Deere branded sled also, much like the Yamaha.

 

I think it would benefit the Arctic Cat Brand. John Deere has $$$ and a massive dealer network; I know riders that left Arctic Cat soley because they lost all of their local Arctic Cat dealers.

 

The last thing a jd dealer would want to deal with is everything arctic cat offers

 

Thanks to everyone who has commented on this topic thus far. Many can either agree or disagree with options. I don't think JD would want Cat sleds at their stores, but do see Cat making Deere wheelers of some sort. IF and I say IF JD was to buy Cat, then JD would have the means for production of their wheelers and just let Cat make/sell sleds and try to get them back in the game of ATV's/UTV's without being a direct so to say competitor to Deere's line if possible. Could Cat make sleds for Deere? Sure., but do the dealers want to get into sleds? Again, IF Deere was to but cat, they should contact all the old Cat dealers who went out and try to figure out how to get them back into the game.

Here in CNY, there are only 2 dealers, Albany area has a few. Polaris and Doo have many dealers so it's quite easy for many old Cat owners to say goodbye to Cat and switch to another brand just for the dealer network. So in a way, it would be in good interest for John Deere to buy Cat and expand their portfolio. Not only that, at least Deere is green too.

I maybe very wrong on things, but point of this discussion is to just see what many think and feel. Yes Textron is a mega company w/ lots of coo-coo bucks, but they missed the mark on letting Cat do it's thing albeit w/ some financial backing. Caused many dealers to fold and not care much about it. In their eyes, dealers are small potatoes. Yet we sledders have a deep passion for Cat and will do things to try to keep them going despite what we think of Textron and also do are best to keep sleds and wheelers running by seeking help here and dealers when needed. Just wish there was a way to tell either Textron or John Deere that dealers are also big factors in the areas in which they are in so BRING the dealers back. If it means one on one, so be it. At least try too see from the dealers perspective what it means to have Cat's in their showrooms and backing from the parent company (deals, low interest rates, etc.......not financial). This is just my $.02.

 

Here in CNY, there are only 2 dealers ....

More like one dealer now as Cook's has dropped Arctic Cat or closed altogether. The Rochester region used to have like 5 Cat dealers and now has zero.

If John Deere buys Arctic Cat, it doesn't need to offer Arctic Cat products at all John Deere dealers. And John Deere dealers wouldn't need to sell all Arctic Cat products (could be ATV and SXS only). They could also put geographic limitations on which John Deere dealers take on Arctic Cat products to protect the existing Arctic Cat dealer network.

One of things that always hurt Cat ATV and SXS sales was an even weaker dealer network South of the "snow zone". I think offering Arctic Cat products at "select" John Deere dealers would be GREAT for Arctic Cat and their sales volume.

When Textron bought Arctic Cat, they did not have strong dealer network, whereas John Deere (which is 4 times the size of Textron) has a VERY STRONG and present dealer network. If John Deere buys Cat, I think it will work out great for Arctic Cat.

In recent times, I have felt Arctic Cat snowmobiles had 2 main challenges:

• Weak Dealer Network
• Lack of Track Options on Pre-Ordered Sleds

A John Deere purchase could address at least one of those main challenges. I also imagine John Deere would have more pull with Camso too.

 

With jd cutting jobs and moving production to Mexico, they aren’t buying cat for cat. They were probably looking for a subcontractor to make a certain gator cheap or get the autonomous technology out of textron. No jd dealer I have talked to had mentioned any kind of rumor of them buying arctic cat and none of them would be interested in selling arctic cat as there is zero money in it for them. Any jd dealer could pick up Arctic cat as a short line and not even blink an eye about it

 

I heard the most logical actual answer to this today. Jd toured multiple smaller manufacturers around the Midwest looking at possible subcontract partnerships in the future (some they use now, some they don’t) They were done around the same time as the cat tour. They were never looking to purchase any of those companies and were probably not interested in buying out cat.

 

I'm pretty sure I made a reference to something similar on page 1 when I mentioned that JD's current dirt manufacturer (IAS) isn't a clean company (Lawsuits and legal trouble) and they would potentially be looking at replacement options for future manufacturing.,

 

Lets stir the rumor mill some more....I heard that it wasn't JD afterall. It was Massey Ferguson/AGCO wanting to buy Cat out. LOLOL

Seriously tho, Cat has fulfilled contracts in the past (2007 MF in the pic as an example). @GregB is likely right on.

But a buy out? Not logical for a company like JD.

 

Lets stir the rumor mill some more....I heard that it wasn't JD afterall. It was Massey Ferguson/AGCO wanting to buy Cat out. LOLOL

Seriously tho, Cat has fulfilled contracts in the past (2007 MF in the pic as an example). @GregB is likely right on.

But a buy out? Not logical for a company like JD.

I am willing to bet those meetings were gathering information to make their recent decisions.

 

Too bad since Cat could benefit from John Deere's massive dealer network.

 

Just found this on another forum.