Thanks so much guys! Took me awhile to to try some of your advice...will get back to you on how I made out!
Timing--- Crank---Cam--valves
2007 Powler XT 650h1 is what I have. I have no regrets I bought it cheap...and seller told me they could not get it started. What I was told was they took it out, went through a major mud puddle...and it died and would not start up to run again. Well, after I washed all the mud off the motor, inside cab, outside cab...two days later I could actually see what was underneath all that mud! Important note: while I was looking around, checking for spark and wire, computer connections...I did notice permeant marker marks on the top end as someone had taken it apart some time ago..perhaps to change the Cam chain? but..I figured they did a good job cuz it ran and got mud all over it...but due to the blow back I was getting at the carb...and the erratic way it was sparking at the plug ... , I went back in my head with all the small engine stuff I had gotten into...and my first thought was a sheered flywheel key. But that was on small engines with weak keys...I wouldn't think they'd use a weak key for a beast motor like this...so I watched a video of a guy checking the top end Cam chain and timing! What the hell...someone in the past was in there doing what? all them red permeant marker marks. Well...I took the top end off...before that I opened the eye hole for the timing at the crank(flywheel) lined up the line at TDC all valves closed....then I take top cover off and look at the Cam timing...it should be left to right edge of casting as a guide...well....IT WAS NOT...it was more UP and DOWN...I'm checking this out and there's no way that I can see this new looking chain to have jumped that much! So?? back to my old thought?? Key is sheared and flywheel is stuck in funny spot? or.......piston rod is slipping on the crank?? Am I missing something some thing here? I have a stupid question too...on small engines...if I was turning the flywheel by hand and I went past where I wanted it to be...I could just reverse my rotation with my hand a little and get it where I wanted it...On this thing.....I can only rotate it in one direction!!????????? Thinking out loud with ya folks here...so any thoughts or idea's to all this...what could I be missing or should check? I have NOT taken the cover off yet to see the flywheel...as it will envolve undoing the water pump too and the clutch arm.
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OK!!! I followed all that you mentioned! I did the stick....so that told me the TDC and fly key and such all good down there I went and took it apart all the way to the casing to get to the piston...for several reasons....one... someone else had with their red perm marker marks...(back of my head, what did they do or not do) I wanted to see also if any issue of contact of valves with piston top. <as I did this...I came up with conclusion ...who was in there had a jump time on the cam issue as well and put the chain back on. What I found is that the chain is like a hot un lubed chain on a chain saw...the chain is stiff at the links where it should bend easy...it's jumpin' the cam..making it go out of time. but I look more, I did not get any antifreeze to leak out of the jug(piston cyl area) I do not think this thing was getting any way to stay liquid cool. Last, the wavey oil ring at the bottom jumped out like a spring, so I'm not sure the order of the bottom oil paper thing rings that includes the wavy ring. Also want to confirm that the "dot" on the piston is supposed to face towards the back where exhaust side is. incase someone before me took that off and put back on facing right way? last, yes the valves did make contact with the piston but only a tiny slight mark on the piston and I've yet to look closer, but the valves don't look damaged. I know for sure I want to replace the chain and tensioner. I'm thinking about replacing the piston with rings..hope I can figure out what order the rings go...the old piston has some groves on the side...the cyl bore wall does not have any lines or groves but is very glossy over smooth. the valves as I said have not gotten there yet to look closer. I also wonder more about this OIL pump thing that the guy in the next thread is talking about, ughh sounds like I'd have to remove flywheel for a fix on that??? Well, thats where I'm at... any thoughts or idea's......I'm all ears and thanks ohh and yes I want to check the thermostat and the coolant pump to be sure that's working due to not finding green antifreeze like I thought there should be....I wonder if the "heat" made the chain "lockey" up as it feels...you really have to work the links to get them un-stiff.......?? Thanks againWasted spark single cylinder engines do all kinds of weird things with timing. My 04 400 ran 22 degrees out of time.
Check your tensioner and look down the cam chain to check the guides. You should pull the head and make sure valves didn't contact piston that far out of time. I don't believe cat builds interference fit heads so you SHOULD be ok but still worth a look.
Did you check piston position using a stick/screwdriver or are you just TDC on flywheel? Pull spark plug, put something long down the hole to move with the piston, ensure piston TDC is at timing mark TDC.
BEFORE YOU REMOVE the cam gear... Run a piece of mechanics wire through the chain under the gear. If the chain drops down I believe you need to split the other side of case to recover it. It sucks.. trust me.
I feel it's highly unlikely they had the flywheel off ever, you need the special puller, they didn't fail on those rigs.
Eratic spark.. cat runs a wasted spark system, it sparks every TDC, not just compression, makes it look weird visually and to the brain.
Hey! I hope you read my finds in the other guys post. I also want to look into this weak oil pump gear...I seen mention of that else where as well. I thought the pump would be near the oil filter, but sounds like it's behind the flywheel? Have to check into that....sounds like a whole nother issue I may have to address?? Would there be any clues ...like my cam chain links are stiff?Biggest problem with the early 650’s was a weak oil pump gear. It has a one way bearing behind the flywheel. It’s to stop kick back on the starter gears. Cat calls it a starter clutch
Hey! Thanks for the reply's !! I was kinda hangin' out waitin' for them. LOL. This motor is very new to me, so the input is appreciated. While I was hangin' out to see your replies, I was checking out just what parts might run for this bad boy. While looking up parts, I've learned that the 650 ATV and the 650h1 XT prowler are two different deals and the parts can be different, some sites do not list the XT prowler in their list, and U can't assume the regular 650h1 will be the same parts. I've only started at looking for the Cam Chain/guides and piston with rings, and I see now how the lower oil ring is set up, the wavy is in the middle of the two paper thin rings, I'm used to the solid oil rings this is like a 3 piece ...ok that's fine. I'm looking to get the thermostat, that's cheap enough. I have not looked into the water or oil pump stuff yet. I did look at what DOORFX said..starter clutch oil gear thing...in parts...weird I'm seeing two different kinds for my model and they are very different...the one comes with a gasket for the flywheel cover, the other looked like it was on the belt clutch side...so i'm going to see if I can find some video's to help clarify that for me. I like to learn so...that will be fun. One thing that comes to my mind while going over all this....is what would be the acceptable "play" of the piston rod connected to the crank? I'm talking side to side, each side has like a bronze/copper washer. how do you confirm if there's too much play at rod connected to crank? God, I hope I'm ok there...My motor is still in the machine and I was hoping to NOT have to remove it to get deep into it.
well anyhoots....thanks guys....I've got a bit more to look into....thanks for the directional point!!
well anyhoots....thanks guys....I've got a bit more to look into....thanks for the directional point!!
Doorfx, some conflicting info....you mentioned...."Biggest problem with the early 650’s was a weak oil pump gear. It has a one way bearing behind the flywheel. It’s to stop kick back on the starter gears. Cat calls it a starter clutch " This had me on the run as to what part are we talking about.. the oil pump gear......or.....the one way "clutch" gear...
Below is a nice written article on the prowler and it might help "clarify" some of the miss-understanding
offroadingpro.com
2007 Arctic Cat Prowler Problems
According to Arctic Cat forums, the 2007 model’s oil-pump-driven gear was prone to failure, and the quad’s teeth would break off the gear and cook the top end.
This model year, in particular, was known for having lots of engine problems mated with engine noise. Many owners speculate that the noise could be coming from the vehicle’s one-way bearing. However, it turned out that it was not the problem source every time. Isolation is key – so, it is best to check if the piston, tie rod, or the oil pump is shot. Then do the needful and go from there.
CLUTCH, ONE WAY ASM ONE WAY CLUTCH BEARING-GEAR
OR ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
GEAR,DRIVEN,29T,OILPUMP (PES) OIL PUMP DRIVEN GEAR
Doorfx, I'm assuming you where speaking out of hands on, or was it something that you read? If hands on, what Arctic-cat where you working on? I'm trying to figure out how deep I may have to go here. as can see, parts can add up fast in price, also the labor could become deep too....so trying to weed out the "don't needs" but do it once kinda thing.
Below is a nice written article on the prowler and it might help "clarify" some of the miss-understanding
Arctic Cat Prowler 650 Specs and Review - Off-Roading Pro
The Arctic Cat Prowler 650 is a rec-utility vehicle that was produced from 2006 to 2009. This 4x4 featured fully-independent front and rear
offroadingpro.com
According to Arctic Cat forums, the 2007 model’s oil-pump-driven gear was prone to failure, and the quad’s teeth would break off the gear and cook the top end.
This model year, in particular, was known for having lots of engine problems mated with engine noise. Many owners speculate that the noise could be coming from the vehicle’s one-way bearing. However, it turned out that it was not the problem source every time. Isolation is key – so, it is best to check if the piston, tie rod, or the oil pump is shot. Then do the needful and go from there.
CLUTCH, ONE WAY ASM ONE WAY CLUTCH BEARING-GEAR
OR ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
GEAR,DRIVEN,29T,OILPUMP (PES) OIL PUMP DRIVEN GEAR
Doorfx, I'm assuming you where speaking out of hands on, or was it something that you read? If hands on, what Arctic-cat where you working on? I'm trying to figure out how deep I may have to go here. as can see, parts can add up fast in price, also the labor could become deep too....so trying to weed out the "don't needs" but do it once kinda thing.
Ok, guys, my next mission was to explore if there where any common part failure issues with the cooling system. There are really not any factory build bloopers in this area from what I can see. I did get this machine second hand.....and before I found the issue's I'm dealing with above...I did notice the radiator half full. I have no idea why as I did not have the machine before all this that has happened. I think the only thing I can do is put a new thermostat in while I have it apart...once it's all together I will be VERY SURE to add antifreeze and MAKE SURE the pump works and the sensor and fan turn on when should. I'll make sure gaskets are in place and the coolant holes in the "jug" are free of matter that should not be there. I've not noticed any like "bleed" hole plug that would help me make sure it's not "air locked" I guess I will have to just watch if there's flow at the radiator?? Ok, thanks guys, just thinking and researching today outloud here. I will be next working on ordering the piston, rings, cam chain, and I have to finish looking at valves, investigate the coolant holes, a few other things-gaskets etc so I can order all at once.
Yes, I'm aware of that now......after I did some homework. Your past post made it confusing. It looked like you where including the one way bearing as part of the oil pump...it's actually two separate topic's of some concern with the Arctic cats. Anyhow....moving forward and happy with all I'm learning from you guys, and video's and many other forum posts! so please allow me to move ahead to where I'm at as of not an hour ago. next post will have my findings.There is a one way bearing on the wet clutch and a one way bearing( starter clutch) on the flywheel. Opposite sides of the engine
ok. so here's what I had to do. I have to remove the cam chain due to it's issue as I described above.In order to do that, I had to remove the belt area, housing and wet clutch. before I did that, I had to drain the oil, that was very BLACK oil, not impressed with the original owner. While doing that, I thought I'd remove the oil filter to check that out...It was bone dry!!?? WTF!? I know it's an up and down filter...but a little black soot oil should have dribbled out...right? I looked over the two gears behind the wet clutch...they are fine...I noticed some guys on other forums are "rigging" up a pressure gauge thing to watch the oil's pressure...Now my thought is if the gears are fine...then they should be turning and making the "pump" work properly, right? I'm not seeing any posts where the oil pump itself are going bad..just the gear, so?? What should I be checking out here....I do not need to "cook" my new chain or such....I do notice that the oil pump sends the oil all the way to the front to be cooled down at the radiator, then back to the motor...no way any of that is all sludged up? blocked?.. Just thinking out loud here...as one should to try to figure out why the cam chain is "kinky"...oil old/ bad?, overheated?, bad water or oil pump...and so on...I can't really check any of it till I put it all back together and run it I guess. I'm reading some guys have got close to 4000 on theirs's and no issues...mine has not even 1000..anyhoots by tomorrow I'll have an order in for the parts I think I need. Time to put it together and pray for the stars to align😅
Thank you, I did look close but maybe not close enough. the gear on the outside of the pump is fine, looks great. I looked at pic's online to see what the back end of the pump looked like, I don't see how that set up inside the pump could go bad?? You caught me at the "oil pump check valve"...I've not seen any video's or talk or pictures of such valve?? umm...wonder if I should pull the gear so I can pull the pump...wonder where that check valve is located...some reason I thought perhaps the oil filter was special enough that the oil filter acts like a check valve?? Ok....back into Deep Dive mode...I was almost settled on that the oil was ****ty, the antifreeze was half full and not cooling the motor good and that all messed with the cam gear chain becoming kinky...umm?? I was thinking when I put it all back together I was going to leave out the thermosat and see if I can get good flow with the antifreeze being at it's proper level...well...back to the oil pump...while I got this darn thing ripped so far apart..gonna give that another 6th look!! Thanks! Catch ya's all soon!If the filter was dry, I would look a bit closer at the oil pump and the oil pump check valve
OK...............I've been looking for this "check valve" for oil.....not finding that for the model I have...only thing listed is a "RELIEF Valve" but...I don't see where that would be the problem...that's made if the pressure is too much, it will release...kinda like a relief valve on a boiler system...get's above 30psi and it lets water out the boiler...back to my thinking...I had an idea to hook up my air to one of the hoses that goes from the filter housing to the radiator then back to the housing to see if the hose and radiator are "clear"...set air at what? 5psi? umm what if the oil filter is the wrong one? I'm going to garage to take another look at all this....just waitin' for something to jump out at me here...??????????Thank you, I did look close but maybe not close enough. the gear on the outside of the pump is fine, looks great. I looked at pic's online to see what the back end of the pump looked like, I don't see how that set up inside the pump could go bad?? You caught me at the "oil pump check valve"...I've not seen any video's or talk or pictures of such valve?? umm...wonder if I should pull the gear so I can pull the pump...wonder where that check valve is located...some reason I thought perhaps the oil filter was special enough that the oil filter acts like a check valve?? Ok....back into Deep Dive mode...I was almost settled on that the oil was ****ty, the antifreeze was half full and not cooling the motor good and that all messed with the cam gear chain becoming kinky...umm?? I was thinking when I put it all back together I was going to leave out the thermosat and see if I can get good flow with the antifreeze being at it's proper level...well...back to the oil pump...while I got this darn thing ripped so far apart..gonna give that another 6th look!! Thanks! Catch ya's all soon!
OK...............I've been looking for this "check valve" for oil.....not finding that for the model I have...only thing listed is a "RELIEF Valve" but...I don't see where that would be the problem...that's made if the pressure is too much, it will release...kinda like a relief valve on a boiler system...get's above 30psi and it lets water out the boiler...back to my thinking...I had an idea to hook up my air to one of the hoses that goes from the filter housing to the radiator then back to the housing to see if the hose and radiator are "clear"...set air at what? 5psi? umm what if the oil filter is the wrong one? I'm going to garage to take another look at all this....just waitin' for something to jump out at me here...??????????
VALVE, ASSEMBLY - OIL RELIEF
VALVE, ASSEMBLY - OIL RELIEF Part # 0812-007 Arctic Cat OEM Part
www.countrycat.com
nope......it's the correct oil filter from what I can tell....it's a Napa 7937....funny ,,I look for this "relief valve"...do NOT see one..just the two oil lines.VALVE, ASSEMBLY - OIL RELIEF
VALVE, ASSEMBLY - OIL RELIEF Part # 0812-007 Arctic Cat OEM Part
all been great advice....gave me some idea's...and if my thinkin' was on track!
Ok guys.....geesh.....life gets in the way at times... I got all the parts in mail finally. I just took old piston off, to put new one on...wish I'd done that sooner. I can now CONFIRM this machine OVER HEATED! Once I honed the cyl...wish I'd done that before ordering parts....I more likely would have sent it out to be bored...but I'm gonna put it all together and pray. I'm going to do everything I can for the oil pump... then after all together.. will do things to CONFIRM the water pump and radiator is plug free...Not very happy with 1st owner...he's supposed to be a know all at mechanical things. I guess he missed the basic oil and antifreeze course along with a thing called proper maintenance... ok that was my rant on him...moving forward...I'm thinking of putting some "T's" in the oil line and in the water cool line. You guys have any idea's or thoughts or such? I'm doing it so I can watch that they are working and perhaps I should put some sort of pressure guage set up.?????. On my dirt bike I had a clear window...it was great, I could always watch the level of my oil and see it's color..but I always did proper maintenance... but it was nice to be able to kinda look in and be sure all was ok...I also like the cars back in the day...you could watch a gauge for water...oil....temp...bat...fuel.....now days U got to trust the idiot light will come on and warn ya...that seems kinda late in the game. but again....I'm old and our world is all tech craze
be safe guys.....enjoy when can.....in our wild wild world at tis moment ......Thanks!
Ok guys.....geesh.....life gets in the way at times... I got all the parts in mail finally. I just took old piston off, to put new one on...wish I'd done that sooner. I can now CONFIRM this machine OVER HEATED! Once I honed the cyl...wish I'd done that before ordering parts....I more likely would have sent it out to be bored...but I'm gonna put it all together and pray. I'm going to do everything I can for the oil pump... then after all together.. will do things to CONFIRM the water pump and radiator is plug free...Not very happy with 1st owner...he's supposed to be a know all at mechanical things. I guess he missed the basic oil and antifreeze course along with a thing called proper maintenance... ok that was my rant on him...moving forward...I'm thinking of putting some "T's" in the oil line and in the water cool line. You guys have any idea's or thoughts or such? I'm doing it so I can watch that they are working and perhaps I should put some sort of pressure guage set up.?????. On my dirt bike I had a clear window...it was great, I could always watch the level of my oil and see it's color..but I always did proper maintenance... but it was nice to be able to kinda look in and be sure all was ok...I also like the cars back in the day...you could watch a gauge for water...oil....temp...bat...fuel.....now days U got to trust the idiot light will come on and warn ya...that seems kinda late in the game. but again....I'm old and our world is all tech craze
be safe guys.....enjoy when can.....in our wild wild world at tis moment ......Thanks!
I was hesitant if it was a Nikasil....but.....the OVERHEATED glaze was AWFUL!... I watched two video's....and I made the choice to hone...once I honed and it was very brief...I could see how bad this machine was abused with dark **** oil-overheat factor ...so it's kinda a catch 22...plus one big factor is my model IS NOT SOLD there are NO replacement JUGS! ..it's VERY hard to even find a used cyl bore! Only one company for 1500 will take your old set up and IF it's do-able they will do things correctly..well..this machine to me is not worth 1500....so I'm takin' a different path...hope it works with good clean oil and a properly working water pump?? I'm gonna throw up the video's.....incase ya guys want to take a quick viewNikasil
The first video...you can jump to time 10;30 that will help ya make your own choices......
Here is another video...this is exactly what I have...as for the motor...but his cyl was actually glazed very little...mine was like a burnt glaze...it was not pretty...again ..hope I'll be ok with the little honin' I did....
I've definitely seen guys add oil pressure/temp and water pressure/temp gauges to their UTVs and ATVs.
Be careful with a hone I'm not sure if the 650h1 is a nikasil cylinder or not, someone here can confirm I'm sure.
Be careful where you send for overbore, might be better to find a replated jug if its nikasil
lol .....I see my post below.....I said dark shi+ oil and I got punished.....sorry ..my bad...but ya guys get the idea...
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