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Discussion Starter #1
I'm getting ready for another mud race this weekend and I have read about taking 2 rollers out of the drive clutch on a 700 MP really helps in the mud. I was wondering if anyone has done this on their Tundercat? Mine is good now if I run it in low, but in high it just doesn't have enough power. I am considering putting the secondary to B4 and removing 2 rollers to see if I can run in high for the race. Good idea or bad? Any info would be helpfull.
 

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high range will not work, no way around it. even big built motor bikes cant turn high range in a mud pit race. low range is your friend. tune the clutches to run as fast as you can in low range. clocking the secondary spring will help you stay in low gear longer, and help you run thru the pit a little faster by being higher up in the RPMs and keeping the clutches from shifting out too fast. however it wont be enough in high range. your bike will bog terribly and you wont have any wheel speeds. just not a smart decision to try and run high range. i have never seen it done sucessfully, and i've seen quite a few folks try.
 

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Id run in low to...Id do the fixed plate mod to gain speed in low
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Well I pulled out 2 rollers and clocked the secondary to B4. Its raining now so I can't test it till morning. But I did start it and rev it up on the lift and the clutches take a long time to start to open. So maybe it will be a little quicker in the mud. Last time I raced I had my zillas on but this time I'm running the silverbacks so I think this will help make up for the weight and traction difference. I still have the bike in race form with the trimmed fenders and no floor boards, so getting at the clutch is easy if it doesn't work.
 

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Running 6 rollers will help you out in the pits no doubt. My SW clutch kit for my laws on came with 6 20 gram rollers and it worked awesome, would hold 7100 rpm the whole time I was on the throttle. And I clutched my brothers xtz 1000 with only 6 23 gram stock rollers and his has been running good with that set-up for his 30" backs. You will be @ about 6700-6800 rpm with the secondary clocked and 6 23gr weight FYI
 

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Discussion Starter #6
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gus @ Aug 10 2010, 11:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Running 6 rollers will help you out in the pits no doubt. My SW clutch kit for my laws on came with 6 20 gram rollers and it worked awesome, would hold 7100 rpm the whole time I was on the throttle. And I clutched my brothers xtz 1000 with only 6 23 gram stock rollers and his has been running good with that set-up for his 30" backs. You will be @ about 6700-6800 rpm with the secondary clocked and 6 23gr weight FYI[/b]
Is that in high or low range. I'm wonderinging if I will hit the rev limiter in high when on the road and in low when in the mud.
 

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No you shouldnt be hitting the rev limiter with the bigger tires on it. Will pull all the way through to top end good. Will lose a little top end due to the less weight in the primary and the belt squeeze but still should do 75 mph no prob on the T-cat. And thats in high of course. Mine hit the limiter in low with the SW rollers but thats 18 grams less than you will be running. so you should pull good rpm's in low and lots of wheel speed. You started with 184 grams and now you have 138 grams should be still good for being under the rev limiter in high. It will rev alot quicker now and should work good for you I guess test it and let me know. but as said before I recomend low range for the pit. I think low range and the secondary unclocked with the lighter rollers would be a good set-up for wheel speed.
 

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Im intrested too hear more about the outcome of removing two rollers. Im also trying too get my T-cat ready for Pit racing.
 

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MudOutlaw @ Aug 11 2010, 10:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Im intrested too hear more about the outcome of removing two rollers. Im also trying too get my T-cat ready for Pit racing.[/b]

You can't go wrong with this mod. It's free and easy to undo if by chance you don't like it. I'v done it to nearly every machine I've had and a few of my buddies. They all respond well to it.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Well I just rode it up and down the road by my house and it revs fast but no upshift. I clocked the secondary to B4 so now I'm going to bring it back down to B2 like I had it originally. In low it hits the rev limiter right away and in high it will do it right off the start and then drop to 7000rpm and stay there but the speed isn't very impressive. I know it will act different in the mud but it worked good before I started messing around too so.. I guess I will try the secondary position back to B2 and giver another run. By the way I can't even wheely now, it just revs. To me that says some things not right.
 

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I wonder if the 3.6s outta ur 650 would help the cause any? From what im told removing rollers with 3.1a is a bad deal with either h1 or h2 because it takes too much rpms...maybe if you have free time take the 3.6 outta ur old bike and see if that gets you to where you want...
 

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Discussion Starter #12
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crash06 @ Aug 11 2010, 08:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
I wonder if the 3.6s outta ur 650 would help the cause any? From what im told removing rollers with 3.1a is a bad deal with either h1 or h2 because it takes too much rpms...maybe if you have free time take the 3.6 outta ur old bike and see if that gets you to where you want...[/b]
That won't work very well since the H1 and H2 have different driveshaft set ups going to the diffs. Also the rear has a SLD in it on the Thundercat. Then I would have to use the front axles from the 05 since they are differnt too. Nice suggestion but I don't see it happening.

Anyway I changed to the B2 setting on the secondary and that helped quite a bit. Now in high its snappy as hell and is a blast to ride. Top end was sacraficed though. Low still seems a little revy to me but when I get down in the mud it should bring the rpms down and pull pretty good. I'll give it a try and see what happens.
 

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
That won't work very well since the H1 and H2 have different driveshaft set ups going to the diffs. Also the rear has a SLD in it on the Thundercat. Then I would have to use the front axles from the 05 since they are differnt too. Nice suggestion but I don't see it happening.

Anyway I changed to the B2 setting on the secondary and that helped quite a bit. Now in high its snappy as hell and is a blast to ride. Top end was sacraficed though. Low still seems a little revy to me but when I get down in the mud it should bring the rpms down and pull pretty good. I'll give it a try and see what happens.[/b]
Swapping the diffs will work, the nose cone on the differentials are interchangeable. The 3.6's I have on my Tcat came off a H1. Reuse the Tcat drive line & the input nose cone from the H2 on the H1 differentials.
 

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you lose some significant top speeds with both the clocking methods and removing rollers. however you decide to run the clutches for the pit race i wish you the best. hope you can win it!
 

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Discussion Starter #15
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wyo_H1_Cat @ Aug 12 2010, 12:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
That won't work very well since the H1 and H2 have different driveshaft set ups going to the diffs. Also the rear has a SLD in it on the Thundercat. Then I would have to use the front axles from the 05 since they are differnt too. Nice suggestion but I don't see it happening.

Anyway I changed to the B2 setting on the secondary and that helped quite a bit. Now in high its snappy as hell and is a blast to ride. Top end was sacraficed though. Low still seems a little revy to me but when I get down in the mud it should bring the rpms down and pull pretty good. I'll give it a try and see what happens.[/b]
Swapping the diffs will work, the nose cone on the differentials are interchangeable. The 3.6's I have on my Tcat came off a H1. Reuse the Tcat drive line & the input nose cone from the H2 on the H1 differentials.
[/b][/quote]
My biggest problem with using the 05 diffs is the front axles. If they were from a 06 or later I'd consider doing the swap. Did you loose any top speed when you changed to the 3.6 gearing?

I think tonight I will change my secondary again and go back to B1 with 2 roller removed and see how that pulls. Right now High range is an animal but low just doesn't seem to have the snap I'm looking for. It's still a little revy.
 

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swapping in 3.6 diffs will give you a lower gear ratio, and allow the motor to pull the tires easier, however you will lose top speeds because of this. the speedometer may read higher but you gotta factor in the gear reduction of the diffs. swapping in 3.6s you will not see any MPH changes on the dash, the gear reduction comes after the speed sensor so you will then actually be traveling slower than what the dash says. but i have seen some bikes that could not pull the 3.1s at top speeds, put in 3.6s and the gear reduction actually made the bike faster on the top end. the lower gearing allowed the motor to pull easier. it is weird but i've seen it happen
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Ok, so today I put the secondary to B1 and did the shim mod to add a little more bottom end. Now I can hit the rev limiter right off the line in high range and when it up shifts it drops to 7000rpm and holds there. In low it will do the same thing and then rev out at 35 mph. It pulls hard in high and low but I'm concerned that in the water and mud it might not slow me down enough and I'll hit the rev limiter when racing. That won't be good. Sooooooo... now I guess it's back into the clutch one more time and get rid of the shim mod to gain a little top end back. 4th times the charm I hope.
 

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
My biggest problem with using the 05 diffs is the front axles. If they were from a 06 or later I'd consider doing the swap. Did you loose any top speed when you changed to the 3.6 gearing?

I think tonight I will change my secondary again and go back to B1 with 2 roller removed and see how that pulls. Right now High range is an animal but low just doesn't seem to have the snap I'm looking for. It's still a little revy.[/b]
Yes changing the diffs from 3.1:1 to 3.6:1 will drop top actual speed 16% or to a top speed of about 69 mph if original speed was 82 mph with stock 25% diameter tires. I did not have the axle problem since my replacement differentials came from a 07 H1.

On my T-cat I gained 4% actual speed with larger tires then lost 16% actual speed with the differential change. My net reduction in top speed is about 12% percent compared to everything stock. What I lost in top speed It feel like I gained twice in acceleration though. In low range at 2000 RPM I can crawl at 1 MPH or in high range I can reach 72 actual speed on GPH when bouncing off the rev limiter and get there in a damn hurry. Displayed speed on the speedometer is 12% higher then my actual speed.

If you use Microsoft Excel the attached spreadsheet will show actual speed from indicated speed for changes in the Differential and tire sizes.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Going West @ Aug 12 2010, 09:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
You will not hit 35 MPH tire speed in the mud. Probable will not pass 20.[/b]
So you think I should just leave it and see what happens? If your right and my wheel speed in the mud doesn't hit 35 then I guess it should work. I've never looked at my speedo when in the mud so I really have no clue what it would be.
 
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