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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I know there's some real tech guys on here.
I sure hope you can help me with my problem & please don't "see your dealer" to me, in no-where Ontario it's not a viable option!
The sled: 2005 Sabercat LX 600EFI. w/approx900 miles.
I bought this sled from a lotery winner & got a good price but no dealer support :(

After a couple hundred miles it started to bog when left idleing any length of time. It now will bog after any idle session more that 2-3 seconds. Makes improptue drag races embarrassing bang your head . It's more than just a bog... if you punch it, it drives away slowly accelerating to max revs of about 5000rpm. BUT if you let off for just a split second & punch it again..presto..max revs & excellent performance. If you just feed it part throttle it'll accerate slowly till approx 30 mph then like a light switch it seems to instantly flick into a perfect running engine! It also is extremely hard to get the track turning when cold starting, even off a stand. I know these have the warm pipe issue but mines excessive.

I've tried the usual, plugs, Fuel injector cleaner... it's deff a engine bog not clutchs. It has a rich bog feel to it but?
I've also leaned out the oil mixture rod to about 50/1 ratio, was 30/1!
I've tried leaning out the TPS on the throttle body (& it did seem to help a little) but am afraid to go very far because it's already lean enough according to plugs on top end now.

Please help!
 

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I think its clutching. Can you get it to bog on a stand? If it doesn't bog on a stand its clutching. If you can get it to bog on a stand, let us know.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Quote from first post
"it's deff a engine bog not clutchs. "

I have a lot of snowmobile experience...it's NOT clutchs!
 

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Sounds like the belt is whooped. My '03 F7 did the same thing at a late summer grass drag. Seemed like a bog then about 30 feet or so it would come on like a raped ape. I put a new belt and primary spring in and adjusted the deflection and no more problem. My guess is that the belt was getting sucked into the secondary because the belt and deflection was out of whack making it seem as if it was taking off in a higher gear (similar to driving a manual car and taking off in 3rd gear). Check it out let us know. Good Luck.
Also check the track tension, you should be able turn it easily. I've heard about 1.5-2inches of sag with moderate pressure in the center of skid frame rails (fish scale works good about 20# of force is what the manual says).
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Awww...come on guys ..badcomputer

I can port your cylinders,
clutch your sled,
jet your carb engine
but these EFI's with sensors & on board computors are over my head!
But I do know ...IT'S NOT THE CLUTCHS!!!

If you punch it from a dead stop with-out lettin it sit for more than 3 seconds it pulls the ski's about 2' in the air & GOES!

IF you let it idle more than 3 seconds & punch it, it'll slowly run up to about 50mph & sit there at about 5-6000rpm !! If you even so much as flick the throttle off the bar it instantly (I mean instantly!!) runs like a raped ape.

Listen carefully...I'm gettin frustrated....It's NOT in the clutchs.

Is there not a genuine Cat mechanic on here that can help? :sos:
 

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Try posting over on hardcoresledder.com. There's also some real informative and helpful individuals over there too.
 

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Fuel mapping to rich...get a boondocker.....that is the only way you'll be able to lean out the low end without affecting other rmps...

I find the 06's fuel mapping is way rich, when I let me sled idle it will load up, the longer I let it idle, the more the exaust smells like fuel....when I go line up, I keep my RMPs just under engagement rpm so it does not load up. After I get my connectors for my boondocker I'll be installing that to fix my laoding up issue.
 

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this may not have anything to do with this,, but when cat originally released the BEFI in 1998 on the 600's, there was rumored to be a procedure to ''enrichen'' the mapping down low, so as to improve the efi ''lag/flatness'' vs a well jetted carb model,, it entailed ''blipping'' the throttle lever really quick from the idle position and releasing it until the holeshot occured,, this was said to trigger a ''one time mash'' of the throttle lever with a richer map off of idle position, then any further lever action (after the single mash) it was returned automatically to std mapping,, this was something that was aimed towards ''friendly lake racing/drags'',, wether it worked or not, I dunno,,

it may well have nothing to do with this, but from the reaction you've described about how a ''flip'' (or letting off) of the lever instantly creates a monster,,,, well,,, I dunno

EDIT: I guess my input was to make aware the little subtlties that cat had done in the past,, and along the way get one's mind wondering if this just happened to be this ''subtlty'' working in reverse order for some unforseen way
 

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First off, I would recommend just keeping your cool and working through this. You have a wide variety of people here with a wide variety of talents and wisdom in a wide variety of aspects of engines. People are throwing out suggestions based on their experiences and knowhow. I wouldn't discount them, even if you don't think that is what the problem is. They are only trying to give you what you had asked for...suggestions and help.

Now, not being an EFI guru, I would ask you one thing...have you ran any Sea Foam or anything through the gas? If the injectors are clogged or otherwise gunked up, that can/will give you very sporatic behavior. Might be a $5 resolution for ya? I would also change the plugs when you do that, just to ensure you are starting with good spark.
 

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Check your fuel pressure, it maybe the fuel pump or the smart valves. Smart valve that is closed should give you low fule pressure. Have replaced fuel pumps before, often looks like the pump may have taken in some water and over the summer starts to rust the inside ogf the pump. Let us know how you make out.
 

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I know you stated you used FI cleaner...what kind did you use? Some kinds (like say STP) are just crap in a bottle and do little-nothing in cleaning anything. The other end of the pendulum is stuff like sea foam and/or Justice Brothers.
 

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I had the exact same problem on my 04 F7 EFI. But reading through the thread you're likely to get hostile because it ended up being the primary clutch. I had the same exact problems you described and listening to the engine, and feeling how it was performing it seemed like an obvious fuel problem because of the bog and hesitation. Someone I talked to on the ride that day said they had a similar problem and it was their clutch. Of course I balked at that convinced it was a fuel problem or water in the fuel or a bad EFI. Next ride my primary clutch had a yard sale and left pieces and parts all over and through my belly pan. Put on a new clutch and havn't had the problem since. I talked to a mechanic that had said if the primary is malfunctioning and isn't working together with the secondary correctly you could get a degree of engine braking which causes the bog and hesitation. Then as clutch opens it comes to life.

Before you bash everyone that it's not the clutching, pop off a buddies clutch, put it on yours once and try it, it's a cheap test. If it still fails bash away :)
 

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Have you checked the throttle safety (cut off)? Try swapping out your ecu if you have another to try. What about installing a fuel psi gauge on your fuel line and when the sled starts bogging, check your psi...this would eliminate any pump/smart valve issues. Have you had the TPS checked for proper voltage? What about fuel tank vent line possibly plugged or kinked? Busted reed? Just some thoughts.......good luck and keep us posted.
 

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senior ......... I had a 04 F7 that did similar things........ My problem was that i had a small hole in an odd part of the piston. But you had to take the head off to really see it. Just taking the plugs out you might not catch it. So my advice is take your heads off and thouroughly check your pistons (and piston wash while your right there, etc. Maybe detonation is early. I don't know without seeing/ hearing it, but give it a whirl ya never know!!!!!!1 Good luck :beer_cheers:
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
SIBBS--sorry for appearing hostile but it's not the clutch...the bog starts before the primary even starts to engage :stop_nono:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tree-Magnet @ Jan 18 2007, 04:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Have you checked the throttle safety (cut off)? Try swapping out your ecu if you have another to try. What about installing a fuel psi gauge on your fuel line and when the sled starts bogging, check your psi...this would eliminate any pump/smart valve issues. Have you had the TPS checked for proper voltage? What about fuel tank vent line possibly plugged or kinked? Busted reed? Just some thoughts.......good luck and keep us posted.[/b]
Can I bypass the throttle saftey to see if that it?
I may have another ECU around in a week or so to try!
I will try to find a fuel pressure gage to instal, any idea what I should be looking for for pressure?
How do I check TPS for voltage, can I use a reg volt meter?

Will try some diff brands injector cleaner, recommended brands not available up here!

Thanks Guys
 

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senior, go into the Z/ZR/ZRT/TCAT section of this site, On top in the "pinned section" you'll see ZR/ZL bog issues. It should help you with the throttle system and help you bypass it. As far as I know, they are the same on firecats/ sabercats as the ZR series.
As far as fuel pressure, do a search of this site, and you'll find plenty on fuel pressure's . Alot of guys use the aftermarket pressure regulators that are adjustable. Is there anything lit up on your speed gauge? Anything blinking?(ecu's blink a code, I believe) It might be something as simple as the water temp wire fell off, the engine would run in the cold mode and could act funny. You might have a cracked pipe, you would have to remove the shield to check. This happened in 03 on the F7, I dont think the 05 600's had any problems but hey, its worth looking into.
Go back a few pages in the firecat section, look for fuel pressure, ecu codes, anything. Chances are that someone has had a similar problem to you. PM them for more info, alot of helpful people on this site. Sometimes it takes a few days to get what your looking for, not everyone visits this site everyday.
I would try ebay for a service manual on cd. I have one for my 05 atv, so I assume they sell them for snowmobiles. When you do get it figured please post back and let us all know what it was.................tigger welcome call
 

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (senior @ Jan 19 2007, 11:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
SIBBS--sorry for appearing hostile but it's not the clutch...the bog starts before the primary even starts to engage :stop_nono:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tree-Magnet @ Jan 18 2007, 04:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Have you checked the throttle safety (cut off)? Try swapping out your ecu if you have another to try. What about installing a fuel psi gauge on your fuel line and when the sled starts bogging, check your psi...this would eliminate any pump/smart valve issues. Have you had the TPS checked for proper voltage? What about fuel tank vent line possibly plugged or kinked? Busted reed? Just some thoughts.......good luck and keep us posted.[/b]
Can I bypass the throttle saftey to see if that it?
I may have another ECU around in a week or so to try!
I will try to find a fuel pressure gage to instal, any idea what I should be looking for for pressure?
How do I check TPS for voltage, can I use a reg volt meter?

Will try some diff brands injector cleaner, recommended brands not available up here!

Thanks Guys
[/b][/quote]

Idle fuel pressure should be 44-48 psi. You could make a gauge for $20.00 or less.

TPS testers are unique...you can build your own or have it checked at the dealer...Info on how to build your own is available on Hardcoresledder
Throttle safety can be bypassed but I can't remeber how to do it. It is just a matter of unhooking a wire...I've never had to do it so your best bet is to check on Hardcoresledder or your dealer.

Have you checked the reeds...IF you have a busted reed the sled could load up at idle and cause a rich bog. Is the sled smoking bad off idle during the bog? Is it more of a lean bog in that there's nothing and then bam the sled goes? Does the sled need time to clean itself out (fuel) after the bog or is it instant go? Have you checked plugs to see if both cylinders are running the same?

Sorry I can't give more info as this is my first Cat and not overly familiar with all troubleshooting techniques but am familiar with some issues that can plague these sleds. As mentioned, searching the '03-'06 Firecat forum on Hardcoresledder will likely answer all your troubleshooting questions.

Good luck and as mentioned, please keep us posted. It takes time but I'm confident you WILL find the problem and will help others who may experience this issue in the future.
 
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