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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a 2007 FIS auto 400. It seems to run fine. Sometimes when I stop and then try to restart it, it won't. This happened again this weekend. We put a spark plug tester on it, and found no spark. On previous occasions if I wait long enough (10-15 minutes) it will restart. I had some problems with the relays a while back. I swapped some of relays, and it still would not start. I noticed that same day that it started even though the transmission was in reverse. The CDI drives the spark plug coil. How could just turning the engine off and then immediately restarting affect the coil? I haven't tried to measure the input voltage to the ignition coil yet. I am leaning towards a bad CDI, ouch. What do you think?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
thanks for the link. That is a good video. It seems that for a good spark the CDI depends on the magneto. I am not sure it applies to me though. They might have fixed the problem by 2007? Mine runs fine until I turn it off. Would not the magnets also slip when it is running. Or are they held in position by centrifugal force and that goes away when the engine is stopped? So when I tried to restart it, the magnet was in the wrong position. It starts after waiting a while. I don't see how waiting a while would fix the magnet problem. Waiting a while can be ike waiting for things to cool down.
 

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You can also download a free service manual here www.mymowerparts.com there is also wiring diagrams in that site.
Take your cdi out and look at the back side to see if there is any bubbling in the thermo plastic or any signs of melting or heat in general. Do you know anyone with a 400 that you could try their cdi?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks I will take the CDI out and look at it. I already have a manual and a schematic. I think the CDI is not supposed to allow it to start while in gear. So that indicates a possible problem with that or a relay. But I had swapped the relays and that did not fix it. I had ridden for several hours before this problem had occurred. It had occurred on another previous occasion. I had just decided that it was flooded. Both times I was being towed back to the parking area. We stopped for a few seconds and it started. I drove the rest of the way back to my ATV trailer.

I don't know anyone who I could swap one with, and it is intermittent. I would have to swap it for a day.
 

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The start in gear function is on a relay in your fuse box SIG
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I was assuming that these were inputs to the CDI. Let me recheck that. The neutral relay output/secondary is connected to the starter solenoid. The s.i. g. relay secondary/output parallels that output If the ignition is in start position 12v is put on there from the CDI. the negative lead from the rectifier feeds the primary of the s.i.g. relay. The other primary lead comes from the CDI break switch.
There are several other switches/relays involved depending on different states such as braking/drive, start/run, 4wd, tailight etc. What is this ladder logic? So maybe bad input to the CDI is causing it to not generate a drive to the spark coil.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
If there was a loose magnet in the magneto then maybe depending on where the motor stopped it would fall/slide out of position and then the motor would not start. That would account for why sometimes it fails to start after stopping. But if I turned it over several times trying to start it, would not also the magnet fall back into the proper position? Then there is the issue that it always starting up cold on the turn of the key, but not always after having ridden it for a while. So that points to a heating issue.


Is it possible to start this in gear? I thought that it wasn't. If so what is the procedure, remove the s. i. g. relay? Can it be jump/push started?
 

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Yes you can start in gear by depressing the brake lever
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I was going to take my ATV to the carwash on a my trailer. It had been a few weeks since I started it. Lately it has been starting first time, without having to prime it. I had pushed it off my trailer to clean that first. When I tried to start it up, it would turn over but not start. Eventually I put a tester light in series with the spark plug, and found out that I was not getting a spark. That is just like the problem that I had, when I had been driving it for a while and just stopped; it wouldn't start back up. I swapped out the CDI for another one. That did not fix it. I then checked the two leads to the ignition coil. They seemed OK. They did not come off while genty pulling on them, so I left them rather than ruin them. I thought that they were spade connectors but they might be on tight and have a shrink wrap covering on them. I did not want to pull them by the wire, and possibly ruin them. I pushed in a little in case they were loose. The ATV still did not start. I then began manually pushing the ATV up the ramp. I got up about half way, and decided to take a rest and put the brake on. After the rest I said what the heck, I am going to see if it starts now. I turned the key, and it started. Then I rode it the rest of the way into my trailer. So it seems that my issue is not the CDI. Before it seemed to be caused by heat after the ATV runs for a while. This time it might have been warm from being in my enclosed trailer? It was on an incline when it started. I wonder if that caused a loose magnet in the magneto to fall into place? But why wouldn't randomly stopping in a different place after turning it over do the same thing? The heat issue could cause the magnet's glue to be less sticky when it is warm?
I need to monitor the input voltage to the spark coil, and see if that is OK next time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I decided to take apart my ATV, and look for loose magnets in the magneto. I had seen the video made by the fellow from Arkansas about loose magnets. Also in the snowmobile forum there were lots of posts about bad magnetos giving symptoms similar to my problems. So I was ready to glue some magnets back in place. I went to LOwes and found some degreaser and jbweld. Jbweld had the highest strength and temperature rating of all the epoxies for sale. I think it was rated for 500 degrees F. I took off the armature but there were no magnets to be seen. It seems that by 2007 there had been a design change. The magnets appeared to be sealed in a casing (rotor flywheel) which did not open. I took a small screw driver and could feel the magnetic pull all around the circumference of the housing. So I don't think they easily slip. Definitely they do not come loose and destroy the armature/coil windings. There were some screws with allen heads in a circular pattern but if those were removed,it did not seem that there would be access to the magnets.
I need to find out why I don't have a spark after I stop after riding a while. It doesn't seem to be my magneto now. I have also eliminated the CDI. So maybe it is the coil or the wiring associated with that. I had previously measured the resistance for the magneto windings.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Today I re-measured the resistances of the leads for the armature and ignition coil. Everything was in range. IThere were no opens on the wire. It seems that I have eliminated everything, but not found the trouble. There is a sensor in the armture that detects one revolution. If that were to go bad I wonder if the CDI would function properly. I want to do the electrical diagnostics when it is running. But if I unplug the connectors from the magneto it won't run. So what I am looking for is a source of the connectors that are used for the magneto and perhaps also the CDI. I can then make a custom test probe where I can monitor all the voltages while the ATV is running.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I am still looking for the connectors that are used for the magneto. I have been told that "This looks like it could be a Yazaki or Tyco connector". With those connectors I can more easily look at the voltages coming from the magneto.

I am also starting to suspect an intermittent voltage regulator. I will need to monitor that to try and diagnose my intermittent problem. I think that probably if the CDI sees a bad signal from the magneto it wont generate any ignition coil voltage.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
We put the magneto and the other disassembled parts back on the ATV. It wouldn't start but could be pull started. We found several volts across the contacts for the starter relay. Initially we thought that was bad or there was a short. We disconnected the starter motor from the bike but left the wires connected. The starter motor would turn over. The gears for the starter motor were stuck. When installed it could not move and sinked a lot of current. We then had some suspicions about this washer that fell off when we were disassembling the crankcase to get to the magneto. We thought we had the right place, but were wrong. After a few minutes online looking at the arcticcat parts diagrams, I found out where it should go. Just that washer caused some of the gears involving the starter motor to not move. When we took it apart again and put the washer next to the c-clip, that fixed that problem.
After we put it back together, it would not start. At least the problem was not intermittent now. It was not getting a spark. I had made an attachment with spade connectors so that we could monitor the voltage to the primary of the ignition coil. I removed the spae connector from the ignition coil, attached it to my test point and then the other end of the test point was attached to the ignition coil. My test point was in series with the primary of the ignition coil. I could attach a meter or an oscilloscope probe to the bare wire of the test point. I then tried to start it so as to see if there was any voltage. To my surprise the machine started. I had only inserted the test point. So perhaps it was a loose spade connector or a bad ignition coil. Previously we had pulled on the ignition coil wire, and verified continuity through the ignition coil. This might be THE intermittent problem that I had been having after I rode it a few miles. I am still not sure which one it is, the spade connector of the connection inside the ignition coil. I had a theory that the voltage regulator was overheating and malfunctioning causing the CDI to not generate a primary ignition coil voltage.

Cat happy
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
My ATV is working now. I took it out for a hard ride and even got the fan running. It always started. The intermittent problem is gone. I suspect that maybe mud combined with pressure washing made loose connections somewhere in the electrical system. Once I had looked at a connector near the voltage regulator and I suspected such. Unfortunately the symptoms mimicked other common causes some of which would be a difficult to fix in time or money. Thanks all that helped me on this last trouble.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
A voltage regulator can overheat after a while and shutdown. Try to put some blue ice or ice in a plastic bag on your voltage regulator the next time it happens. See if the problem clears much sooner.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I thought that this problem was gone, but it reoccurred. Accidentally we found out how to fix it temporarily. I was only able to start the ATV when I put my foot on the right brake. Why that? It seems that it activates the S. I. G. relay. I think S. I. G. stands for start in gear. The output of that relay is in parallel with another relay. Either one actuating will achieve the same result. So that other relay was intermittently malfunctioning. Previously I had already replaced that relay. It could also be that it is not seated properly or the contacts have become dirty or muddy. I am thinking about adding some foam inside that compartment where they are housed below the seat to make sure that they are always seated properly. The foam would compress them when the cover is closed on the small box which houses them.
 

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I thought that this problem was gone, but it reoccurred. Accidentally we found out how to fix it temporarily. I was only able to start the ATV when I put my foot on the right brake. Why that? It seems that it activates the S. I. G. relay. I think S. I. G. stands for start in gear. The output of that relay is in parallel with another relay. Either one actuating will achieve the same result. So that other relay was intermittently malfunctioning. Previously I had already replaced that relay. It could also be that it is not seated properly or the contacts have become dirty or muddy. I am thinking about adding some foam inside that compartment where they are housed below the seat to make sure that they are always seated properly. The foam would compress them when the cover is closed on the small box which houses them.
SIG is start in gear, allows you to start the ATV if is NOT in neutral and IF the brake is applied. That is the way SIG is supposed to work.

The other relay is the neutral relay. Meaning you can start the ATV if it is in neutral with out applying the brake or if in gear you must apply either the foot brake or the hand brake to start it.
 
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