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My sled: F1000 standard @ 500+ miles, stock 1" hacksaw track with 204 Woody's 1.175" studs with 3/8" - 7/16" penetration, stock clutching, no other mods of any kind, track tension good, APV cables to spec, clutch alignment and deflection to spec, pulls an easy 7300-7450 @ WOT, my weight 140ish lbs.

The ride IS the real thing – at least speaking for my standard suspension. You've all read about the ride on the new F's many times on the boards, so there's really nothing more for me to add on this.

All around performance – well, OK I guess. Nobody's had much of a chance to do much riding yet this winter, let alone testing and tuning, but I feel I've put enough miles on and ran against enough other trail stuff at this point to make a few good, honest observations compared to my bone stock F1000 as it came from Cat and the dealer, plus studs of course.

One of my riding bud's has an '05 Mach Z which has had all the (long '03 F7ish) list of updates done, for whatever that's worth, and running the stock 1" track with 192(?) studs that are too short IMO. He's ALWAYS had fits with most F7's most of the time, especially in any kind of snow, and for anything under 1000' runs. His biggest problem, low-end and getting the power to the ground. We've run many times now, and it's fair to say, we're pretty damn close for the most part. I almost always get the holeshot, and we stay pretty even for the rest of the run. If anything, I'd say he has a few MPH on the top-end in the distances we run – 1/4 mile(ish) on packed snow with top speeds generally under 100MPH. I was pretty content with this... sharing space with a Mach Z, until this past weekend.

We usually make a lot of informal runs for fun before we hit the trails, and this weekend was no exception. My Mach bud was under the weather, but there were some other pesky "little" sleds there to mess around with. My old (11,000+ mile) '03 F7 with the "usual simple mods," 2.5 key, fuel restrictor, BMP pipe mod, ripsaw track, 102 studs, dynoed @ 136ish max hp; an '04 or '05 F7 with simple mods, clutching, 1" track, 102 studs; an '04 or '05 F7, BONE STOCK, 1" track, ZERO studs; an '05 Sabercat 700, simple mods, my old 1.375" track w/102 studs.

Conditions: 20ish degrees, packed but loose snow a few inches deep, running 1/4 mile or so. Again, these are trail riders on trail sleds, messing around and having fun... well, some more fun than others... LMAO... so here's the report for that day, those sleds, those conditions.

The good news... from what I can see, the Cat 7's are STILL the trail stock sleds to beat, for the condtions and distance we were running. The bad news... from what I can see, the Cat 7's are STILL the trail stock sleds to beat, for the conditions and distance we were running... LOL! At BEST, my F1000 was a close race for 'em some of the time, and at worst, I was looking at frickin' taillights to the tune of 1-3 sled lengths, with little to no chance of running them down on top-end. Same results MANY times.

After that somewhat embarassing spanking, and after our crappy trail ride and good lunch, I wanted to do some top-end runs on my sled, as well as on two the F7's. I was pulling 93-96 on my F1000, and on the F7's I was pulling 92-96... very, VERY close on top end for those conditions and that distance.

Then decided to try some rolling starts from 30-40 MPH. Every single time the F7's would yank and pull away an EASY minimum 2-3 sleds, with little to no chance of running 'em down, and one of these was the BONE STOCK one with ZERO studs!!! Oh, and did I mention I was the lightest guy there by 30-60 lbs??? Me on the F7's compared to my F1000 was like comparing... oh hell... nevermind.

Sorry guys, but that's the way it was, like it or not. How do you think ***I*** feel??? $10,000 ($3000 more than my '03 F7), 300cc bigger motor, 20+ hp more (???), 4 years newer sled and technology.

The last sled I had that was this disappointing performance-wise, as far as the size of the sticker (1000) on the side, was my '02 XC800 that would barely outrun its excellent little brother, the '02 XC700.

A few things (for me) to ponder at this point:

1. Is the power to weight ratios simply THAT close on the F1000 and the simple modded F7's?

2. Is MY sled really making it's touted 162ish hp, or do I need to spend another $100 to verify hp on a dyno?

3. Is TRACTION the issue??? Can it be that the stock 1" hacksaw is nowhere near enough to put power to the ground, considering the added weight that's up front over the skis?

4. Can the clutching be THAT far off??? I know I'm a few hundred RPM high based on most of the dyno reports I've seen, but I wouldn't think it'd make THAT much of a difference... or would it?

5. Is there really, truly, an ECU update/reflash in the works from Cat, that may (or may not?!) address some of these performance issues?

6. Maybe my performance hopes and expectations were simply TOO high, coming off of (and riding with) F7's?

OK, on THAT note, I DO have the y-pipe and airbox mod to try out soon, and likely some clutching too. I'll report back if those mods require me to duct tape my F1000 stickers in place, or if my F7 buds will need binoculars to see MY taillights... wish me luck!

Oh, my bud's 190hp "440" hybrid ZRT/ZR runs like a raped ape... makes mine feel like a 440 fan... hell, he's in a whole different zip code in fact! But I'll take mine on the trail and over the bumps any day!

Now, to see if I can keep up with my bud's freshly rebuilt (crank, pistons, rings) 12,000+ mile '02 XC700... wish me luck... I might need it!

Please, no useless, smart-assed comments – save my time, your time, and everyone else's time if you don't have something useful and constructive to add. Thanks! – Roy
 

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Another thing to consider.... (and you can't really change this)

The Firecats & sabercats have 13.5" tracks, cat did this for top speed. Less width hittin the air under the track and less wind resistance in turn the track.

This may be why the Firecats and Sabercats had such an advantage on you, not sure if it would make up for the extra HP, but might be close.

:beer_cheers:
 

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Sounds Like youve got your hands full, Im sure that the F1000 has go to have some balls, but to be beaten by some modded F7 from 4 YEARS AGO! Wow man I thought buying an M1000 would be nice for my birthday, but now Im really starting do think twice about the melting problems, but (Thats an easy fix), and being beaten by 4 year old technology. Well good luck to you!
 

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Great report Roy (as usual) .... but am truly sorry to hear your frustrations :(

I have no comparisons whatsoever on my F8, but hope to have some later this week. I can say I have pulled up and over 100mph very quick in ideal conditions, and have had to let off due to running out of room. Keep in mind that was with the 14" track and no studs. Later this week I'll be riding with a buddy on a new Dragon, and another buddy with a new F6. Other sleds will be older iron like the '02 XC8 you mentioned and some other Poo 600's (IQ and Edge chassis). Now that I'm finally studded, I'm interested to see how it does if we find some good hardpack.

As far as your F1K goes - I wish I could offer you some advice, I really do. I know if I were in your shoes, and running neck & neck (or even behind) the F7's I'd be more than frustrated too. Yes the ride is so much better it's not even fair to compare ... but the informal lake racing is something a guy likes too, and there's no reason the new F1K falls short. My gut reaction would be clutching, plain and simple. I would love to see what ODS Dan has for a kit, and will be buying one as soon as he gets one for the F8.

The D&D y-pipe is an add-on that I have too. But I'm reluctant to add it without the Boondocker ... especially knowing the conditions I'll be in later this week are going to be close to 0F. Are you running some sort of fuel mod with yours, or going with the add-ons & no fuel delivery changes?

As we chatted in a previous post, have you checked your shift out on your clutching? Are they hot to the touch (indicating slipping) after a longer pull at WOT? The ECU reflash appears to be real, but when it comes out I don't know.

Wish I had answers Roy, sorry bang your head
 

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I would say the weight isn't helping at all. Wait until one rolls over on top of you and you are stuck undeneath, it's heavy. :oops: I think clutching will help, my friend says his ran 117 on the gun when it was revving a few hundred RPM lower, I think he said 7300 max on a long road. Went out last night and sled was revving 7400-7500 and was down to 111 MPH or lower. My sled after I installed the heavier secondary spring is now over revving with my clutching and you can feel it nose over and quit pulling. Now mine isn't near stock, but the same thing can happen on any big twin if the motor isn't loaded hard enough. Better to be under by a little off the start then rev to max RPM right away.
 

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roy T @ Jan 30 2007, 12:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
A few things (for me) to ponder at this point:

1. Is the power to weight ratios simply THAT close on the F1000 and the simple modded F7's?
yes it is 478 [email protected] 140 hp is a ratio of 3.41 pounds per hp versus [email protected] 165 hp and 518 pounds is a ratio of 3.13 lbs per hp, sop you can see it dont take much tweaking on a f7 to get that ratio closer to the f1000.
2. Is MY sled really making it's touted 162ish hp, or do I need to spend another $100 to verify hp on a dyno?
its making more than that, i saw 165.8 hp @ 7200, keep in mind that in stock form anything over 7200 and hp drops like a brick! at 7500 its down to 154hp!

3. Is TRACTION the issue??? Can it be that the stock 1" hacksaw is nowhere near enough to put power to the ground, considering the added weight that's up front over the skis?
traction is key and unless conditions are real good (ice or hardpacked) you are going to get track spin.

4. Can the clutching be THAT far off??? I know I'm a few hundred RPM high based on most of the dyno reports I've seen, but I wouldn't think it'd make THAT much of a difference... or would it?
YES! i truly believe clutching is that far off, its a fact if you got the hp but not the top end speed clutching is pooched.

5. Is there really, truly, an ECU update/reflash in the works from Cat, that may (or may not?!) address some of these performance issues?
i talked with my dealer and he said some are effected some arent, they are sending ALL of their sleds ecus in to AC and letting them check them, if your ecu is too lean in any spot of the calibration it most definately willl effect performance.

6. Maybe my performance hopes and expectations were simply TOO high, coming off of (and riding with) F7's? most definately NOT too high! keep the faith, Dan (ods), D+D and the bikeman boys WILL get these figured out, i gaurantee it, and then every f7 and machz around WILL know theres another bigboy on the block! keep the faith dude its only a matter of time.[/b]
 

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Roy,

You need to call me so we can talk about these issues....

There are a lot of Yes's for answers in your post above.......

517-230-3732

Tod
 

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Roy: I have to comment. Keep in mind this is coming from a guy who has no interest in going 100 MPH. Having said that, I think I would be disappointed too. Just a few observations:

- at 500 miles the machine is barely broken in. I understand it takes some time for the diamond drive to loosen up. Maybe you were a little too quick to see what she could do? Maybe you scuffed up a piston? Maybe the rings didn't seat properly?

- the Firecat can compare in only one respect. All out racing. Yes they are light and fast, but they are also flimsy and fragile. You could rip a ski off of an old ZR. A few front end components and you were back in business next weekend. The same accident with a Firecat and it was scrap aluminum time. Arctic Cat realised they were on the edge of exceptibility with the Firecat chassis. That is why they are promoting the stiffness of the F chassis.

- anytime you are expecting to be the fastest or stongest or best at almost anything, you are going to be disappointed sooner or later. History is full of the biggest and the best being humiliated by the small and humble.

Your F1000 has so many more positive attributes that you can focus on. The F7 has embarrassed many larger machines from all makes in outright speed. You said yourself that you were happy with the way you stacked up against your buddies Mach Z. These F7's are going to kick his ass too. Polaris has nothing faster. Yamaha maybe, but I doubt it!

Just my thoughts. Redd
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks for the good, supportive feedback so far guys.

Tod, tried calling @ 2:00, I'll try again later.

Headed out to buy some oil and a new leftover F7.

(Just kidding... I think!)

Later! – Roy

P.S. Damn... it's FINALLY starting to REALLY look like WINTER around here!!!
 

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All i can say is sorry. But to back you up this is what i seen on the weekend. 1/2 mile run on radar, snow conditions. polaris* 800 xc and xcr's ----- 86-88 mph
* 800 Rev's------------- 86-88 mph
* F7's-------------------- 94-101 mph
* t-cat------------------- 94 mph
* 05 F6 ----------------- 95 mph
* NEW 07 F6 ---------- 85 MPH
* NEW 07 1000 ------- 95 MPH

NOW ALL SLEDS SAME CONDITIONS SAME, SAME SAME. RUN WHAT YOU RIDE TYPE OF DAY. AS THE DAY WENT ON AND THEY RUN THE SNOW WAS ALMOST BLOWN OFF THE TRACK AND DOWN TO ROUGH ICE THE NEW 1000 WITH AROUND 192 STUDS DID PULL 106 MPH. BUT SO DID A O5 F7 WITH NO STUDS.
I DID TAKE THE 1000 FOR A SPIN AND IT HAS WICKED BOTTOM AND MID BUT LAYS DOWN AROUND 90. I DO THINK IT NEEDS HEAVIER PRI WEIGHTS TO MAKE THAT MOTOR WORK, PULL HARDER ON TOP. ALSO TO LOWER THE TOP RPM, THIS ONE TOP AT 74-7500. THROW A SET OF HEAVIER WEIGHTS 2gs at it and see what happens, I think it would pull 5 more grams, stock spring.
GOOD LUCK
 

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Roy, the F7's (especially 03's) are built for speed...period. Low, skinny, light, and lots of power. Compare that to a sled engineered more for bumps, heavier, wider...etc. Kind of like the F7 sno pros that can't seem to go very well lots of the time. Not as much built for speed.

One thing that gets me on your sled is 204 studs....that's a TON of rotating mass. I have 136 1.325 studs in my Crossfire and they weigh 9 pounds with the backers / nuts. You probably have 15# of rotating steel there....and they really hang down also. You must fall off the back if you whack it on ice???

Good luck...I'm sure you'll figure it out.

Keep in mind that the best of the best could only make the 1000 go a length better than the F7 in 500'.
 

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cmscat50 @ Jan 30 2007, 01:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Roy, the F7's (especially 03's) are built for speed...period. Low, skinny, light, and lots of power. Compare that to a sled engineered more for bumps, heavier, wider...etc. Kind of like the F7 sno pros that can't seem to go very well lots of the time. Not as much built for speed.

One thing that gets me on your sled is 204 studs....that's a TON of rotating mass. I have 136 1.325 studs in my Crossfire and they weigh 9 pounds with the backers / nuts. You probably have 15# of rotating steel there....and they really hang down also. You must fall off the back if you whack it on ice???

Good luck...I'm sure you'll figure it out.

Keep in mind that the best of the best could only make the 1000 go a length better than the F7 in 500'.[/b]
I'll assume your refering to the PROPAGANDA photo from HAYDAYS. I still have my doubts. We'll see what the future brings soon...World Series on Ice is fast approaching. I'll bet there's a few well tuned F-7's lurking out there willing to BUMP UP to 1000cc stock class. Remember ya heard it here first... If an F-7 beats the F-1000 these internet forums will erupt like you never seen.
 

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Won't happen Melrose. Kelly Shilts will win on his 1000. :) No doubt there will be F7's in the final though. Wonder how many F8's will be in the 800 final....dohhh.

Haydays was that close. Jaimie Edwards has himself a missile of an F7.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smokin @ Jan 30 2007, 02:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
All i can say is sorry. But to back you up this is what i seen on the weekend. 1/2 mile run on radar, snow conditions. polaris* 800 xc and xcr's ----- 86-88 mph
* 800 Rev's------------- 86-88 mph
* F7's-------------------- 94-101 mph
* t-cat------------------- 94 mph
* 05 F6 ----------------- 95 mph
* NEW 07 F6 ---------- 85 MPH
* NEW 07 1000 ------- 95 MPH[/b]
Thanks for posting those results Smokin'. Well, those speeds certainly seem to reflect my results this past weekend! And look at that '05 F6 sneaking that 95 mph in there – you know if that was stock? If so, wouldn't completely surprise me, hanging right in there with some of the F7's, the T-cat, and yes, even the F1000! My bud had an EB stock F6 that ran like that... crazy, just crazy I tell ya! He went and spoiled it all unfortunately by making it into an F8 – BIG $$$$$$ mistake! – Roy
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FaSTBoY @ Jan 30 2007, 04:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
roy just a thought make sure that your intake doesn't clog up with snow dust....mine seems to clog up alot with snow[/b]
Thanks bud – found that out my very first time out. Serves us right for taking these things out in the snow... LMAO! – Roy
 

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roy T @ Jan 30 2007, 05:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FaSTBoY @ Jan 30 2007, 04:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
roy just a thought make sure that your intake doesn't clog up with snow dust....mine seems to clog up alot with snow[/b]
Thanks bud – found that out my very first time out. Serves us right for taking these things out in the snow... LMAO! – Roy

[/b][/quote]


LOL well I sent my pictures on to cat today and they say that they know the intake is a problem and are working on a new screen for it.....can't wait to see that one.....

didn't mean to hijack your thread..
 

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I was out on Anchor bay this past sunday for a so-called "shootout". It was mostly a bunch of local guys doing some run what you brung racing in an 1/8 mile track plowed by quads. There was a few highly modified drag sleds but for the most part just some t-cats and other misc trail sleds. When out of the blue some new f-1000's arrive and I'm sorry but if that is the top of the line for cat I'm going to have to Doo it when I go to buy a new machine this year. They ran 4 or 5 times and finally left after getting there a!#'s handed back to them by some f-7s and old zrt600's. Even racing from a 30 role they just didn't have it. I have been a die hard cat guy all my life but lately I'm just loosing faith. A couple of my friends run mach z's and I can say that if this new 1000 is designed to compete with them cat has a lot of work ahead of them. It wasn't even close watching them run, and the sad part was the mach's were running trail studs while the f's had ice picks. I hate to be the barren of bad news but thats the sad truth of it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (built_ZR_600 @ Jan 30 2007, 04:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
I was out on Anchor bay this past sunday for a so-called "shootout". It was mostly a bunch of local guys doing some run what you brung racing in an 1/8 mile track plowed by quads. There was a few highly modified drag sleds but for the most part just some t-cats and other misc trail sleds. When out of the blue some new f-1000's arrive and I'm sorry but if that is the top of the line for cat I'm going to have to Doo it when I go to buy a new machine this year. They ran 4 or 5 times and finally left after getting there a!#'s handed back to them by some f-7s and old zrt600's. Even racing from a 30 role they just didn't have it. I have been a die hard cat guy all my life but lately I'm just loosing faith. A couple of my friends run mach z's and I can say that if this new 1000 is designed to compete with them cat has a lot of work ahead of them. It wasn't even close watching them run, and the sad part was the mach's were running trail studs while the f's had ice picks. I hate to be the barren of bad news but thats the sad truth of it.[/b]
As hard as that might be for some of the Cat faithful to believe, it all sounds like deja vu to my spanking this weekend. Funny you should mention the old ZRT600 though. One of my F7 buds also has an older stock ZRT600. He's been riding that until we had enough snow to get out his F7. Anyway, a few weeks ago, on the same strip, I let him get ahead of me 2-3 sled lengths from a roll so I could go by him 20 MPH while sucking the decals right off his sled... LMAO... needless to say, it didn't happen. In fact, I never DID catch the SOB!

I gotta' stop... I'm making myself sick... I mean, sicker.

Tod, I'm ready to give this my/our best shot. – Roy
 
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