Arctic Chat : Arctic Cat Forum banner

141 - 160 of 185 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,202 Posts
Who said the pump was mechanical and not electrical? Not me. The pump would be a positive displacement pump controlled by an electric motor. Huge swings in viscosity would change the flow rate of the pump. When they are already injecting less oil, the amount injected is critical.

Cat published an SDS as required by law but they don't have a specific test standard the oils must meet. Many of the oil companies have done testing and showed their oils worked just fine in CTEC2 engines. On the flip side, I have seen no documented engine damage proven to be due to the oil when a high quality synthetic is used.

I run the Cat oil as I find the price is reasonable, it is easy to get, it smells good, and the low temperature properties are good. My engine spent the first 1,600 miles of it's life on Amsoil Interceptor. I have zero concerns of any engine damage due to the use of Interceptor. The cylinders, pistons, and rings looked flawless. Power valves only had the normal carbon buildup but still actuated fine.
ok I didn't know if you meant that it was mechanical or not. It is electric. It increases and decreases oil amounts through the computers program. It MAINTAINS a flow rate through it's volume so it can't change it's flow rate. That's what a positive displacement pump is. As to the SDS (MSDS here; Material Safety Data Sheet) That just show safety data in case of emergency, That doesn't tell you what is in it as a formula. Cats formula for the oil is not Cats responsibility to competitors for the formula. They can give a spec that it has to meet. But thats all. If they deny everything (which they never have) thats when the law suits fly. And this never happened.

Only thing that happened is Amsoil just SAID it was was ok to use. People put it in their own sleds and SAID everything was fine or "my power valves were clean" or " I have zero concerns of any engine damage due to the use of Interceptor."

All this may be all just fine and happy But,,,

Again to new buyers. These are all just people saying this stuff. There is no test done for approval nor was any other oil ever approved by Arctic Cat to meet the specs of the Ctec2 engine PERIOD!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
57 Posts
While I agree that huge swings in density and Viscosity could be problematic, the density difference between say Klotz and CTEC2 oil is .025. I can't imagine the tolerance of the oil pump to be that exacting that it would actually result in engine failure or excess wear.

That being said, if they deny a warranty claim due to use of after-market oil, wouldn't that require publishing the specs of specific oil requirements? The claim is that CTEC2 is the only oil to meet Arctic Cat's specifications for use in their motor. I would expect that if there was significant risk of excess wear and failure - it would be stated that "Oil for use in this snowmobile must be at least XX pour rate at XX degrees, XX% dense and XXcSt viscosity @ 40C.

All of that aside, I use CTEC2 but I'm a fan of Klotz as well. I can see switching down the road as this topic develops. It would be a bold move to deny a warranty claim over after market oil.
Cat should cover it unless they know for sure it was a lubrication related failure due to the oil used. In that case, the warranty by the oil manufacturer would kick in. It may be a finger pointing match between the two but at the end of the day the customer should not pay for it. The customer would be smart to take a oil sample from the reservoir and send one to the oil manufacturer and another to an outside lab for analysis.

Amsoil markets theirs as Warranty Secure, Klotz Warranty Compliant. Mystik's warranty is here with many of the steps outlined above. https://www.mystiklubes.com/warranty.jsp
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,202 Posts
these suits have taken place and unless you have unlimited funds, the oil companies going to prevail. Pretty hard to prove "Hey the oil did it "
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
57 Posts
ok I didn't know if you meant that it was mechanical or not. It is electric. It increases and decreases oil amounts through the computers program. It MAINTAINS a flow rate through it's volume so it can't change it's flow rate. That's what a positive displacement pump is. As to the SDS (MSDS here; Material Safety Data Sheet) That just show safety data in case of emergency, That doesn't tell you what is in it as a formula. Cats formula for the oil is not Cats responsibility to competitors for the formula. They can give a spec that it has to meet. But thats all. If they deny everything (which they never have) thats when the law suits fly. And this never happened.

Only thing that happened is Amsoil just SAID it was was ok to use. People put it in their own sleds and SAID everything was fine or "my power valves were clean" or " I have zero concerns of any engine damage due to the use of Interceptor."

All this may be all just fine and happy But,,,

Again to new buyers. These are all just people saying this stuff. There is no test done for approval nor was any other oil ever approved by Arctic Cat to meet the specs of the Ctec2 engine PERIOD!
One of the main advantages of the electric oil pump is more precise delivery and the ability to regulate flow on more than just throttle position (like they used to). They would likely be using pulse width modulation to control the oil pump delivery. Different parameters such as water temp, throttle position, rpm, EGT, etc. can all be used to determine the required flow. I think this is one of the reasons these engines are so durable. Same thing with the fuel mapping.

PD pumps will maintain flow rate in most conditions like you say. Viscosity does affect the oil flow rate through a PD pump though. The severity depends on the specific style of pump they are using.

SDS is the new standard. MSDS is no longer used. Here is the SDS for CTEC2 oil. http://arcticcatlubricants.com/wp-c...CAT-C-TEC2-SYNTHETIC-2-CYCLE-OIL-06012015.pdf

Cat has no incentive to publish an oil spec. They want to keep people using their own oil. Cat can't require only their oil is used. If they do, they need to provide it for free, per the Magnuson-Moss warranty act.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,202 Posts
Yes I know all of that SDS, MSDS same thing, they even say that in their site, I pretty much posted the same thing you said. Except for the fact that Cat has not had approval for any other oil for their engines so far, not saying they may in the future but as of this writing theirs is the only oil approved for use and that's it

As to Positive displacement pumps, they do not vary in flow per viscosity. Positive displacement means just that a 1 cubic inch pump will pump one cubic inch per cycle whether your pumping water or 50 weight, one cubic inch is one cubic inch. Unless you want to start changing physics on me.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
20,025 Posts
Not really actually.......You're comparing carbureted engines with vacuum operated valves to fuel injected sleds with servo operated valves that have multiple valve motions.
Now, the total amount of fuel and oil burned, as well as throttle position(which controls oil flow) will make a huge difference in the amount of gunk built up, but engine heat is controlled by the thermostat and conditions.
EFI vs carbed, mechanical pump vs electic pump, pressure activated vs servo activated, 100*F vs 40*F thermostatically controlled cooling systems, has zero, zilch, zip, nadda’ to do with the very subject of the amount of carbon that is building up on valves (for comparisons)...

You were wanting apples to apples, you got apples to apples. Fact is, I’ve throughout my career seen a lot more valves sticking due to carbon buildup on engines with pressure activated valves than I have servo activated units.
INTERNAL components that are directly exposed to HIGH TEMPERATURE combustion gas temperatures are what is key here.. do you not see that?

Unfortunately, thanks to this very thing we are using this very moment (the internet) I’ve seen so many folks follow ill advised recommendations and literally toast their EFI sleds by doing something very stupid that is recommended by another who has not had success and is only trying to make it look as though they have done something that they haven’t in an effort to avoid embarrassment.
If you could only imagine how many times over the years (that I’ve seen first hand results of, or seen link to on the net, of what has happened when something as such has happened) that I’ve double face-palmed in disbelief of such foolishness, you’d be amazed. Truly, you would be...

I’ve seen such happenings with all kinds/selections of EFI sleds in the past. You make an engine work harder, you get more internal heat, and quicker buildup of carbon on critical parts, leading to more often required maintenance, plain and simple.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,053 Posts
It's amazing all the conversations out there with what oil to use. I know nothing about oils so I will stick to my Cat 50:1 for my 570 fan, my APV oil for my Sabercat and Cats 4 stroke for my T660. If i ever get a newer Cat that uses the C-Tec2 I will use that, unless Cat has come out with a different oil by then. Oh, and I use Cat oils in my quads.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
605 Posts
I’ve seen such happenings with all kinds/selections of EFI sleds in the past. You make an engine work harder, you get more internal heat, and quicker buildup of carbon on critical parts, leading to more often required maintenance, plain and simple.[/QUOTE]
Like I said, more fuel use=more carbon build up. You described the use of the old Polaris drivers where the husband towed ice shacks and such.......More fuel use......The wife cruising along with less throttle and less oil would obviously build less carbon. This has absolutely nothing to do with heat as you describe it.
All I know is that I have been riding sleds since 1974 and have never had an engine failure. I have broken every other single part you could possibly break on a sled. I have run many two strokes over 10,000 miles, and a couple four strokes that high with one at 15,000 miles. Simple preventive maintenance, good quality oil(who cares who makes it), and good sense when applying the throttle will make any modern sled last a long time...........Never owned a Ski Doo though......
Your experience may differ.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
20,025 Posts
Baydog, this whole tread is based on oils, not fuel consumption.


It is the oils being “finger pointed” that began the sticking valves. In direct relation to how hard an engine was being forced to work, thus creating carbon (AND) oils combined to lead to dirty valves and sticking.

So many folks claim Amsoils Interceptor keeps their valves spotless. Sure, due to a ridiculous amount of detergents. Those same detergents make it so clean burning that off season rust preventatives are required to be used to keep engines that ran that stuff in them to keep from rusting during the off season. Again, sure, that EXAMPLE keeps valves clean, but cuts back severely in other more important areas.
Same thing goes for running an engine as hard as it possibly can sustain, that engine will create more fuel/oil carbon buildup due to it being so hot and over coming the oils lubricity factor. << That, is what I have been saying. Nothing more, nothing less.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
57 Posts
Yes I know all of that SDS, MSDS same thing, they even say that in their site, I pretty much posted the same thing you said. Except for the fact that Cat has not had approval for any other oil for their engines so far, not saying they may in the future but as of this writing theirs is the only oil approved for use and that's it

As to Positive displacement pumps, they do not vary in flow per viscosity. Positive displacement means just that a 1 cubic inch pump will pump one cubic inch per cycle whether your pumping water or 50 weight, one cubic inch is one cubic inch. Unless you want to start changing physics on me.
I had it the wrong way around, increased flow rate with increasing viscosity for PD pumps due to decreased internal leakage.

Cat has not, and will never, approve another oil for use in their CTEC2 engines. Look how many (including me) are using their oils. It's a money making scheme.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,202 Posts
I know nothing about oils so I will stick to my Cat 50:1 for my 570 fan, my APV oil for my Sabercat and Cats 4 stroke for my T660. .
The 660 you can use Mobil 1. It's a car engine from a car in Japan and that's one of the oils recommended by Suzuki (and believe it or not a Jacobsen Golf Coarse lawn mower) I used it exclusively in my Turbo 660, Factory recommended.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
I don't care about cost... I know Klotz is the more superior oil. My buddies have always ran it and they get over 11,000 miles on theirs. I just like it more and I've always ran it. Do you know anyone who has ran Klotz?
Why would you come on here and ask this if your mind is made up and all your buddies are running klotz. I’d say you already know, I would personally run what’s made for it. I own a 6000 and I wouldn’t put anything else in it
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,164 Posts
I recently built a slide hammer adapter to pull power valves from a 2016 zr8000 that had run amsoil interceptor since the second tank of oil. My buddy owns it, he never serviced them. I shamed him into it at 5,000 miles and clean is not how I would describe them, hence the slide hammer. If I had a c-tec it would be sipping cat oil. My zr8000 drinks lots a klotz since I fixed the oil cap vent. It has 8,500 miles on it today when I got back in the trailer, as long as she keeps purring I'll buy her all the klotz she wants.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
11,300 mile on 2015 6000 Ctec. Rebuilt top end this fall 900 miles ago. One piston skirt was scuffed on intake side. Lubrication issue? I caught it in time. The other was fine. Always used ctec2 oil. Pulled valves and cleaned them every year. They needed it, but why wouldn't one clean them yearly regardless? I guess some peeps can't wrench. Interceptor would be fine, but I use ctec2. Google youtube "interceptor cold flow test".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
You guys are so full of it. We have been going through this for years, and you people are still babbling about oil. They cannot void your warranty when using certified oil. That is just silly. If your warranty was voided for oil, then you got taken for a ride by your dealer. No, there is nothing special or magical about this motor that demands you use AC oil.
Castrol Snowmobile Oil is just fine, and should be around $20-$25 a gallon.
If I still have this thing after it runs out of the AC oil, I will absolutely use Castrol, and the 8000 will still suck regardless.

Also, why would you need special fancy oil for a crap motor?
You had better be VERY CAREFUL with what you say on this site, crap motor? I think NOT! and YES the warranty is VOID if you don’t use Ctec oil dude! I think you should actually read the manual provided, and no the dealership is not just trying to make money off of you, personally It’s up to you what oil you run; just don’t expect the dealership to replace that smooth and linear; crisp and clean; hard pulling engine on the factories dime! 🐈‍⬛
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
7,906 Posts
He has been removed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: William Stern Jr.

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,202 Posts
and YES the warranty is VOID if you don’t use Ctec oil dude!
Ok don't mean to be the fly in your ointment but that there is not legal. I am in favor of always using the "recommended" Ctec2 oil and as this guy also mentioned "certified oil", you think Arctic Cat is going to certify someone elses oil? The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act states clearly that if the the manufacture forces the customer to use their oil, they must provide it for free. Nowhere does Arctic Cat "force" as in "void warranty if" if you use some other oil. There is also no such "certification". If there was they would have to provide detail what the requirements of the certification
Here is a Harley example of a Tie-in sale by Harley to use their oil
A. While AMSOIL is not being specifically attacked in this case, the letter and response do reveal a situation where an OEM is apparently trying to tie in the use of its products to maintaining a warranty. Tie-ins are specifically prohibited and are considered a deceptive practice under the Magnusson-Moss Act. The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) publishes a booklet called “A Businessperson's Guide to Federal Warranty Law” (available online at http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.shtm#Magnuson-Moss) that clearly explains some of the features of the Act. Here are some excerpts (highlighting added):

What the Magnuson-Moss Act Does Not Allow

There are three prohibitions under the Magnuson-Moss Act. They involve implied warranties, so-called “tie-in sales” provisions, and deceptive or misleading warranty terms….

The Code of Federal Regulations (16 CFR 700.10, available at http://www.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/cfrassemble.cgi?title=200716) (highlighting added) similarly says:

(a) Section 102(c) prohibits tying arrangements that condition coverage under a written warranty on the consumer’s use of an article or service identified by brand, trade, or corporate name unless that article or service is provided without charge to the consumer.
so the answer is NO, they cannot void your warranty unless the oil becomes free of charge
 
  • Like
Reactions: William Stern Jr.

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
Ok don't mean to be the fly in your ointment but that there is not legal. I am in favor of always using the "recommended" Ctec2 oil and as this guy also mentioned "certified oil", you think Arctic Cat is going to certify someone elses oil? The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act states clearly that if the the manufacture forces the customer to use their oil, they must provide it for free. Nowhere does Arctic Cat "force" as in "void warranty if" if you use some other oil. There is also no such "certification". If there was they would have to provide detail what the requirements of the certification
Here is a Harley example of a Tie-in sale by Harley to use their oil
A. While AMSOIL is not being specifically attacked in this case, the letter and response do reveal a situation where an OEM is apparently trying to tie in the use of its products to maintaining a warranty. Tie-ins are specifically prohibited and are considered a deceptive practice under the Magnusson-Moss Act. The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) publishes a booklet called “A Businessperson's Guide to Federal Warranty Law” (available online at http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.shtm#Magnuson-Moss) that clearly explains some of the features of the Act. Here are some excerpts (highlighting added):

What the Magnuson-Moss Act Does Not Allow

There are three prohibitions under the Magnuson-Moss Act. They involve implied warranties, so-called “tie-in sales” provisions, and deceptive or misleading warranty terms….

The Code of Federal Regulations (16 CFR 700.10, available at http://www.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/cfrassemble.cgi?title=200716) (highlighting added) similarly says:



so the answer is NO, they cannot void your warranty unless the oil becomes free of charge
Dealership supplied me with 1 U.S gallon of Ctec2 oil free, no charge to get me started for the first year. I asked for it, and they gave it to me; as well a A/C belt and a cool ball cap. Snowmobile Setup and pre-delivery inspection manual states on page 18 “Recommended Injection Oil” The recommended oil to use in the oil-injection system is A/C C-tec2 Synthetic 2-cycle Oil (p/n 6639-520-48 oz) This oil is specially formulated to be used and meets all of the lubrication requirements of the A/C C-tec2 snowmobile engine. I understand “ Recommended” for what it meaning is, but why purchase oil from a company that has not tested their oil in the C-tec2 from day one of conception? I will continue to use the C-tec2 oil, it was designed and engineered for the C-tec2 engine. Secondly, if you like the A/C brand; why not support the A/C brand to continue to make it stronger? By purchasing A/C oil and their genuine parts, your also supporting your local friendly A/C dealership and making them stronger as well!
 
141 - 160 of 185 Posts
Top