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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Wow, finally have a bit of time to actually get back into my testing reports. Needed some time to think things through as well. I'll start with the easy stuff.

Had a couple of the 6.38" idlers kicking around off the ZR project, so I put them on the TSL's. When I took the pivot idlers off there was just ever so slight evidence of rubbing. I am convinced it is predominantly an issue with Sno Pros. None the less I was curious about the reduction in vibration. Well it did reduce the vibration somewhat, but not completely. It does seem to run more smooth. Overall I think it did make enough of a difference that I'm happy. What I find interesting is that the Cat bearings were pooched! Replaced them with a good quality bearing that should last a lot longer.

I did run a bunch of different clutch setups, but before I get into that I want to talk about the XS 801 belt. Bottom line is that the sled pulled much harder from bottom to top in comparison to the 036. I like the belt and will continue to run it. Probably still throw in the 036 on occasion, just to see if anything changes in different conditions. One thing to note is that it generated a **** load of heat while breaking in. Ironically, Carlisle states 30 miles for breakin....it took exactly that much before the heat started to go away. Keep in mind that if you run this belt you may need to reduce primary weight.

Speaking of primary weight (nice segway don't you think). As already stated in previous posts, I have been grinding my own weights. Did a couple different things this time around and am extremely happy with the performance!! NO MORE STUMBLE!!!!! Pulls great right from engagement through to shift out.

Oh yes, shift out (I'm on a roll). After testing multiple primary springs with the custom weights, I finally settled on one that had the best results in the old "seat of the pants" meter. Had one issue though that seemed consistant no matter the spring. I was getting some heat buildup in the primary, just a little, but enough to bug me of course. When watching the rpm's I had two different things going on. I am now engaging at about 4000 rpms, so when hammering the throttle from a rolling start (about 5000 rpm's), the sled would pull like mad and come right up to 7950 or so rpm. Did see 8040 and 8050 a couple times. BUT, from a standing start it would still shift fast and hard, however rpms' would not go above 7500. This was driving me crazy, and I started to focus on the primary and perhaps my weight profile. A couple sleepless nights and I came to the conclusion that the sled is shifting up waaay too fast from a standstill, and with the increased torque feedback coming from the track, the sled can't get the rpm's up. So shift rpm's at top are good as seen from the rolling start, but the shift is too fast from the standing start. I knew what had to be done, and the more I thought about it, the more the evidence is on the wall. Need a stiffer start rate on the secondary spring, but the same finish rate. I found one that should be perfect for me, and it will arrive tomorrow I hope. It is similar in ratings to the new Cat orange that they are using in all the 07's. It has close to the same finish rate as the old green spring, with a higher start rate! Interesting isn't it!!!! At least it feels good to know that my conclusions may indeed indicate a common issue with the DD. With a little further investigating, this issue of shifting up too fast may be quite common. I do run an aftermarket helix that seems to give better torque feedback and backshift a little better. Another interesting thing to note is that one comment I made during the whole RK Tek kit buying frenzy was that the DD is great, but we are limited by secondary spring choices. If you look around, lately a lot of the aftermarkets have added several new ones to their list (D&D, Fett, Goodwin....). This is getting good! One of my local D&D contacts here sent me a spring to try for FREE (yes free), but I am not sure the rates are good for what I'm trying to achieve.

So the new secondary spring is coming, and I picked up a Shift Assist to see how that will work out. Once I have that setup properly I might try a couple different primary springs again just for interst sake, to be sure of the finish rate. However, I do believe that I have found a good one. I like the current weight profile and will try to run that or a slightly modified version. Thinking I need to place a tiny bit more weight in one area. Belt is great, helix is great and hopefully the entire secondary will be good by this weekend. If it all works as well as I hope, I will share my final thoughts. Keep your fingers crossed.....snow drags are at the end of the month and I want this Crossfire to at least give everyone a good run for their money!

Time to go dream about clutching again............
 

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Can I ask what rates are in your helix? :)
I tested my CF7 yesterday and I'd like to put little deeper helix in. I tested 51 straight (?) helix and bottom end really ripped with R/W! But for top end that helix is way too deep.
 

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Are you running against other sleds ZRRR or just using seat-o-the pants?

I remember testing with my F5 (also handbuilt / ground weights..etc..) that my sled felt the quickest when it was in fact SLOOOWWEST. I'm talking almost perfect R's etc, but BUS LENGTHS slower in 1000'. Once I got a few other sleds to test against my worst feeling setup was the fastest....and completely untouchable. Something to keep in mind before lining up agains other sleds....though you seem to have plenty of experience..
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cmscat50 @ Jan 5 2007, 07:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Are you running against other sleds ZRRR or just using seat-o-the pants?

I remember testing with my F5 (also handbuilt / ground weights..etc..) that my sled felt the quickest when it was in fact SLOOOWWEST. I'm talking almost perfect R's etc, but BUS LENGTHS slower in 1000'. Once I got a few other sleds to test against my worst feeling setup was the fastest....and completely untouchable. Something to keep in mind before lining up agains other sleds....though you seem to have plenty of experience..[/b]
I agree with you completely! Don't always have the opportunity to run against other 6's or 7's. Most of it is seat of the pants, GPS readings and comparisons to my 800 and old ZR 600. Right now all I want is a good straight shift that pulls like crazy. I can always tweak for more speed, if needed, after that. Races here are only 500 feet. I know this setup will be/is better than stock and addresses some of the current issues. I do have one other testing method....I call it the "how sore is my body" meter. Day after all this testing I was so sore in the shoulders and arms, from trying to hang on, that I knew these setups had to be good! :lol:

I'll have more to say after the weekend.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bearcat-97 @ Jan 5 2007, 01:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Can I ask what rates are in your helix? :)
I tested my CF7 yesterday and I'd like to put little deeper helix in. I tested 51 straight (?) helix and bottom end really ripped with R/W! But for top end that helix is way too deep.[/b]
Is that a straight 51??
 

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ZRrrr @ Jan 5 2007, 11:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bearcat-97 @ Jan 5 2007, 01:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Can I ask what rates are in your helix? :)
I tested my CF7 yesterday and I'd like to put little deeper helix in. I tested 51 straight (?) helix and bottom end really ripped with R/W! But for top end that helix is way too deep.[/b]
Is that a straight 51??
[/b][/quote]


Yes, I'm assuming it is straight. Well, that was not good helix anyway.

I tested about 150km at weekend and all I can say I'm quite close what I want :) My elevation is about sea level (100-500 metres).

I put back stock helix (44/40) with R/W spring in 2nd hole. Primary had yellow/GREEN and 71gr BigDogs. This setup really pulls really hard from line! I raced against stock Summit 1000 and we were side by side up to 120 kmh. Maybe I pulled little more, but we were really close. Only negative issue is that this setup didn't run more than 125 kmh. It hit wall at this point. It also overrevved slightly from the line. So I tought this setup does not like those heavy tip weights.

I went back to home and changed ZR800 stock weights (71.5gr, no lock screws) and did some testing again. I did not have anybody to run against but this seems to pull even more than those BigDogs! I only had change for about 250m pulls and it hit skis sky high to 140kmh when I had to brake down. I'm waiting to run agains my pal's stock CF7 to see actual difference. It does still slightly overrev (8060) so I'm assuming 73gr Cat weights would be best for me/this kit.

Sheaves can be touched by hands any time. No slippage marks. Runs really hard all the time and sled is ready all the time waiting you hit the throttle hard. Skis are really easy to pull out from ground at any speed by just pressing the trhottle. I assume I can hit 160kmh (100mph) easily right after I get more space to run. When riding at trails rpms are low and easy. But when you hit the gas sled screams and pulls like bull and skis points up to sky.

So my setup (suggestion) is this:
- My own mod secondary. May work with OVS/RKT kits too?
- AC wellow/green spring
- AC 73gr weights (cut from tip)
- AC red/white spring in 2nd hole
- Stock helix (44/40)
- AC 036 belt
- Stock sled, except oil turned down 1 turn and 310 mikuni in fuel line.

I'm going to try stock weights (75gr) and secondary in 3rd hole. But I think that setup wont be so good because of that secondary tightening. Running R/W spring loose gives really nice bottom end pull and I really don't wan't to loose that :)

This setup may work (?) for everyone? Just change weights couple grams smaller, yellow/green spring and red/white in second hole. This is just a supposition :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Alright, another weekend out testing and more good news to share.

I did not receive the secondary spring I was hoping to get on Friday, but after a quick phone call found one at the dealer which would be good enough to see if my theory was right. Well, turns out the spring worked better than anticipated. Upshift slowed a little and the gap in the RPM's narrowed a lot. I was still running the XS801 belt and found that it was having a hard time being consistant. Squeeled like crazy at every stop too. Decided to throw in the 036 belt again and see what happens. Wow, was I surprised. Actually pulled waaay better than the XS belt and considerably more consistant!!!! Shift profile changed quite a bit too. I was now getting a quick overrev (2 to 3 seconds) to about 8020-8050, and then the PRM's would settle in at about 7800. This is both from the standing and rolling starts. There was just a little heat buildup in the clutches on Saturday, but seemed to be less on Sunday. Perhaps the springs started to seat and belt grip was better. I did notice that a lot of the primary heat was actually transferrring from the engine through to the clutch. Have to live with that part.

One interesting thing to note is that I am now running a more aggressive helix, heavier primary spring both in inital force and finish force, heavier secondary spring with higher start and finish forces...BUT....lighter weights!!! Down to 68g with the custom grind job. Not sure if it's the profile or the setup overall leading to the lighter weight? I will take out another 1/2 gram or so of weight to get the RPM's to 7900, but will be changing the profile slightly once again. Ran up to 95 MPH in a short distance before I had to let off. Never was able to get over 90 previously. Keep in mind I have a 1.6" track on there. Still getting full shift out!

I know it's not an accurate testing methodology, but fun none the less......I had 2 friends ride the sled this weekend, one Saturday, one Sunday, and had not told them anything about the changes. Both came back and right away said that the sled felt a lot faster and harder to keep the skis on the ground. I'll take that as a good sign. thumbguy Rockerdude

A couple small parts to arrive this week and one more weekend of testing before the races!

Forgot to mention that fuel mileage seemed better as well.
 

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thanks Zrrr


I went for a ride today,Last time out I had this setup.... My 044 sits flush in secondary, Spring adjuster on secondary turned all the way to the left, stock green spring, and stock yellow primary, and still have the 290 jet the IP....

because we had no snow until today, everything is basically hardpack... I went out for 2 hours.

First I tried to put another shim in and raise up the belt, the cogs were slightly above... the machine bogs down low then has insane track spinning power, then settles down and pulls hard... didn't like it. I rode all last year with 044 cogs way above but the spring was turned to the right quite a bit, it was lots better that way... I took the shim back out... WOW, same flush setup, and spring turned as far as I could to the left... the machine flat out pulls from 3800 to 7840 and doesn't hiccup one bit... its by far the fastest my machine has ever been. When these ripsaws are on hard pack and the belt doesn't slip anymore...they flat out pull your arms off. I seriously can't see how any stock sled could beat it to 80, i'm sure some can, but it must feel insane, because these 700's hooked up, Just RIP.

Today my tunnel issue faded into the distance as I blasted to 90 :)

As for shift, the visibility was poor, so i didn't go over 91-92, but i have NO DOUBT she'll fully shift now on hard pack and get me to 105, if not a couple ticks more.

Back shift is there with good response, not perfect but decent, but if I hit the brakes for some reason and get back on the throttle she is asleep, but thats to be expected.

We'll see how it does in powder if we ever get more, but right now for trail riding, I cant see it pulling any harder. I'm leaving it alone for now.


My one 1 concern is ...what rpm is your 700s at when running 40-50 mph? Just crusing mine seems high around 6000-7000. Zrrr i know yours is a 600 but whats yours at too...
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Grizz, I can't remember exactly what the cruising RPM's were at what speed. About 5500 to 6000 at about 40 to 50 MPH if my memory is correct. I'll watch a little closer next time out. I'm not so concerned with the cruising RPM as I am with throttle response and fuel mileage. If your running more efficient, then mileage goes up no matter the RPM. That's part of the goal anyway.

One thing I have been thinking about is the slight heat buildup which seems to always be there. After noticing the heat transfering from the engine into the primary, I have started to consider opening up the clutch area somehow. With all that under hood insulation and compactness, I am not surprised by the heat transfer. I know that many of the M owners have gone to open sidepanels with a snow shedding material. I am not considering such a drastic move, but sometheing similar. I think this may help out a lot of us XFire owners.
 

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that reminds me... i totally forgot. I didn't ride with the belt protector on today to try and help with heat. I'm not sure how much it works for heat, but like I said, my machine has never felt quicker.

I will continue to ride with out the belt protector and put my spare in the cubbie hole, it fits fine.
 

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AWESOME!!!!

Grizz i have been reading all of your posts because i am running pretty much the same as you. CF7 (mine is SP), stock springs, 044 belt, Fett Bros Billet adjuster.

I would like to try the same setup as you to see the difference. SO........ if you don't mind telling me everything to do.

I am all ears :)
 

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great, so the only thing you did is adjust the seconday spring correct? and remove an shim somewhere (i think i read that aswell)?
 

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Well, I've removed and added shims for some time...so here, I'll go take pictures, you can do your's exactly the same, and tell me what you think, then if you can improve on it, I'm all ears.

be right back with pics.

O44 belt, green driven, yellow drive, 06 x7, loose track.... not sure of clutch offset (shims behind the secondary), never checked. The fact mine seems to be working well, likely means mine is fine.

This is my belt deflection...I know it seems low, but I honestly feel that it gives me the best results.
[attachment=60062:my_best_...arts_019.jpg]

I run my track super loose...never heard a rachet..... but i find the looser the better.
[attachment=60063:my_best_...arts_014.jpg]

here is the shims I use, I use BD, not fett brothers, i believe FB uses no shims? but i might be wrong.
[attachment=60064:my_best_...arts_021.jpg]

I might play a bit with this part, but i found that turning the spring adjuster to the left as far as I could gave best results.
[attachment=60065:my_best_...arts_025.jpg]

almost full shift, i am very confident i could pull 105mph on the lake...we'll see next time out there....
[attachment=60066:my_best_...arts_023.jpg]


Please no comments on the dirt??? I just road 50 miles today..thanks :) (inside joke)
 

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Good thread on HCS

I posted some results , and finally got my secondary springs put in over this past weekend
So far i am only testing the 036 belt

Hopefully riding and more testing this upcoming weekend with the new springs
Chris you run the XS801 belt yet , or are you still laid up - How you doing - Thanx Scott


Bee1971

Click on link and read my posts

http://www.hardcoresledder.com/forums/inde...howtopic=202227
 

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One more thing

Watch out how many shims you pull out behind your secondary clutch for perfect alignment/offset
of clutches

Will talk when i get home

Back to work - I mean the game

Scott
 

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thanks for the perfect pics Grizz. I will adjust mine to the same as yours as soon as i get a chance. Your right about the Fett Bro's adjuster, no shims. So by turning the spring adjuster to the left you mean counter clockwise correct? Also i guess i need the special tool to do it aswell?

Thanks sgain
Eric
 
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