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Discussion Starter #41
Is the ZR frame different than what is used for the 2002 4 stroke touring? I always thought that was much more upright.. at least compared to my 98 EXT Touring. After spending last week on my brother's Renegade, I can't go back to sitting low on the EXT for any distance.
 

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I've never tried rider forward.....what I don't know can't hurt me......
My longest day of riding on my ZRT was a bit over 200 miles and I for sure felt it the next day, some of this is from the heavier steering too I will admit. A few years older I rode 310 miles on my Procross 800, and rode 200+ more the next day, at least 150 the day after that. In this case what I didn't know hurt me a lot. I am 6'2" and as I said, my knees give me fits on the older sled. I completely get the fondness for that power plant, I fall into that category too, I would buy an updated triple cylinder 2 stroke tomorrow if it was in a procross chassis. I think they should have built the Thundercat procross with one, widen the bulkhead and make the body work different like the doo strokes do it. It would sell.
 

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My longest haul day was 500 on my 94 EXT EFI. By myself, 5 tanks of gas....No lunch. Just haul ass all day. I was a lot younger for that one. I don't ride all that much these days. I'm sitting here with my thumb up my ass and I would be riding if N Wis had decent snow by my shack up there. The irony is there's better riding where I am sitting right now in ILL. I'm not paying this state one nickel for regis or trail fee. I wouldn't get one mile from here before I got pulled over by the dnr.
 

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Is the ZR frame different than what is used for the 2002 4 stroke touring? I always thought that was much more upright.. at least compared to my 98 EXT Touring. After spending last week on my brother's Renegade, I can't go back to sitting low on the EXT for any distance.
The ZR chassis, 93 - 2007 are all closely related though it has been refined a lot over the years. Starting with AWS III and going to V up front, the standard skid and tunnel, then ETT and finishing with the TSL skid in the back (and coupler blocks later if you want to go a step further). The first ZR chassis had steel bulk heads, later they switched to aluminum. As far as the "feel" between the 98 and to 2002, I suspect a lot of that has to do with the seat and handle bar configuration. Believe it or not that 98 EXT is almost identical to a 2002 4-Stroke trail chassis wise.

If you know the breaks you can swap a ton of parts around on these machines. AC sure did get their money's worth out of that design.

K
 

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I have 136 T660 rails under my ZRT, between that and the AGLT it rides pretty nice. You are right Kopeck, that design was around for a good long while. We still have a ZR500 here too, one of the most fun packages in that ZR frame if you ask me.
 

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My longest haul day was 500 on my 94 EXT EFI. By myself, 5 tanks of gas....No lunch. Just haul ass all day. I was a lot younger for that one. I don't ride all that much these days. I'm sitting here with my thumb up my ass and I would be riding if N Wis had decent snow by my shack up there. The irony is there's better riding where I am sitting right now in ILL. I'm not paying this state one nickel for regis or trail fee. I wouldn't get one mile from here before I got pulled over by the dnr.
My point is that riding the newer sled I can still pound away the miles that I wouldn't be able to on the older chassis for sure, this body is not worn out but I would not enjoy more abuse than I feel I deserve to enjoy riding a snowmobile. I have 8,700+ on my 2014 ZR8000 and it is still ready for more. I keep the older sleds for playing here on the farm with the kids.
 

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I've never tried rider forward.....what I don't know can't hurt me......
The '05 T660 Touring in the picture was my father's. The last time we took a trip together he was somewhat hesitant to go as he had a bum shoulder and his back would get sore. I told him that he should take my TZ1 and I would ride my Turbo. The first day we put in 130 miles not wanting to over do it. We were about 5 minutes from my in laws house (where we were staying) stopped at an intersection when he asked what we were going to eat that night. I said I didn't have a plan so he suggested we ride to one of our favorite restaurants...40 miles away. We did it, got back to the house with 200+ miles and he never complained. Something that hadn't happened in a LONG time. Rider forward is real, it's amazing how much more comfortable it is.

I think I had him convinced to upgrade the '05 Touring before he passed the next fall. Not saying that T660 Touring isn't a good machine but if the difference is hurting or not at the end of the day it does show it's age a bit. Heck last week I rode it 75% of the time as my wife likes the TZ1. I could have taken my '73 Cheetah and still had fun. :)

K
 

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I have no doubt I would probably like it for the ride but I have trouble with the styling on most rider forward plus I'm unwilling to give up my glorious T660 engine.....Give me this engine in a new chassis that I like the looks of and I'm in!
 

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Icky I totally understand that point of view. I am getting sort of fond if the suzuki 800 HO though....so I will tough it out fir the both of us.
 

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Discussion Starter #51
The ZR chassis, 93 - 2007 are all closely related though it has been refined a lot over the years. Starting with AWS III and going to V up front, the standard skid and tunnel, then ETT and finishing with the TSL skid in the back (and coupler blocks later if you want to go a step further). The first ZR chassis had steel bulk heads, later they switched to aluminum. As far as the "feel" between the 98 and to 2002, I suspect a lot of that has to do with the seat and handle bar configuration. Believe it or not that 98 EXT is almost identical to a 2002 4-Stroke trail chassis wise.

If you know the breaks you can swap a ton of parts around on these machines. AC sure did get their money's worth out of that design.

K
That's good to know. I thought before if I could raise the seat a few inches, my ext would be much more comfortable, but I assumed there would be other issues to worry about. Might have to look around for another seat instead of selling it. Other than being loud and uncomfortable, that sled had been really good to me.
 

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Discussion Starter #53
I see what you mean. Looks like I'd need to find a matching gas tank too.
 

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Back to the 4 stroke issue, it seems that Doo has a 130hp ace 900 turbo now. That gives them a 180, 150, 130hp turbo to choose from, all 4 strokes of course. The 130hp is right in the middle of the "600" class that the magazines talk about, and right around what the 7000 was doing. It seems like at least Doo wants to sell 4 strokes.
 

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And I think they do sell them. I saw a handful last week in the county. The ACE engines get great gas milage too, 20+ from what I read. My 1100 gets around 14 to 15, which is nothing special. I think the 7000 is in the same ball park. 5+ more mpg is significant. I know people say "we're having fun, fuel economy doesn't matter!", it does to me in that I don't have to stop as much, I also don't mind not spending more money on fuel. Heck my T660 could hit 20mpg (with a bigger tank to boot!).

Ski-Doo has the best 4-stoke engine lineup hands down. That being said if we had the 7000 that would make me happy enough. I guess we will have to wait and see what Cat does. I wonder if they would consider a mill of their own? I mean they make plenty of 4-Stroke ATV engines.

K
 

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The ACE 600 and 900 will get 20 on a regular basis. I ride with a 900 with 20,000 miles on it. This weekend I'm going to the County with a guy who has a 150hp ACE turbo. I'll see how that goes, as we will likely rack up 800-900 miles. Cat doesn't seem to want to sell them, neither does Polaris, but Ski Doo is selling tons of them. No wonder they have over 50% of the market.
 

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I wonder how much of this is the popularity of mountain sleds. It seems like AC is putting some effort in there with the Alpha 1 and 2-Stokes to play up better in that application. Seems like well over 50% of the paper/video magazines reviews are on deep snow sleds. It's clearly the "in fad" at the moment, even when it doesn't make any sense. I see dealers advertising Alpha in Maine, a sled that AC says has no business being on the trails. Heck the percentage of off trail machines I see ON the trails up north, all with their scratchers down pounding down hard packed perfectly groomed trails is mind boggling.

Maybe it has nothing to do with that, just spit balling.

K
 

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Maybe as part of the BRP lawsuit settlement, Cat had to drive customers away, and most would go to Doo, as they are the market leader.
 

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Discussion Starter #60
It seems like it. I was assuming the 2 stroke trail sleds will still be there, but they certainly didn't mention anything. I was thinking they were just trying to break away from Yamaha by limiting their dependance on their engines, but other than the Blast they really have nothing new to their models.

They were awfully awkward about avoiding the 5 year plan question, though they sure seemed to know where they'd be.
 
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