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Discussion Starter #61
Here is a good question for you. For example, when I need my car to go somewhere possibly could be as much as a 300 mile round trip, I think nothing of it as far as checking my plugs and oil and fluids etc. I am always confident that all is good since I checked it last and simple start it and drive off. I have never been able to do that with any snowmobile until the 4 stroke came out. It has been proven many times over that they can be as reliable as a car. So my question would be, what aspects of a snowmobile do you feel a 2 stroke is better at than a 4 stroke?
I already know they are faster except for the Yamaha sidewinder but for the kind of riding we do 90% of the time I have found just the opposite. Its just my opinion but I would like to dig into it a little more and get yours in more detail. thanks.I dunno

2 stroke is check or add oil before leaving for a ride. Changing plugs on the trail hasn't been a thing since the late 90's for cat riders. buddy put 6,000 miles on the factory plugs in his 05 600, I made him change them when servicing it that fall, they didn't need to be done, and that engine was nowhere near as advanced or clean running as the new 600



The yami 3 cylinder engine is tough on starters, and starter gears, lots run into valve problems around the 10,000 mile mark. Then you have to deal with the mess and pita of annual oil changes.


@Krom

Do you know if the engine changes to the 800 are fixing the flaming exhaust/melted side panel issues? Or are they simply there to make more power?

Thanks,

Chris
No official word yet, but I assume its to make more power.
Arctic Cat gave its big C-TEC2 8000-Series two-stroke engine a significant makeover for 2020. The 793cc twin features new cylinders, pistons, combustion chamber, flywheel, and fuel rail. According to Cat, the engine also boasts “a new fuel calibration strategy that delivers cleaner and more responsive performance, with improved fuel economy and power”

Designed and built by Arctic Cat in St. Cloud, Minn., this engine also features an Arctic Power Valve system with three-stage control of the auxiliary exhaust ports via side valves, as well as three-stage control of the primary exhaust port. Cat says oil injection is precisely delivered via an ECM-controlled electronic oil pump. Other features include battery-less EFI, Exhaust Pipe Temperature Sensor, knock sensor and engine-reverse technology.
 

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Although the selection of models has dropped, this new Riot has options of filling all these gaps. It is Cat and your dealer saying this is what you need for your riding style, instead of buying what you think you want. M sleds don't belong on the trail, not enough cooling and paddle tracks eat slides like crazy. That 7000 is a slug, too heavy and slow if you get off trail at all. Most people really wont notice much of a difference between a 129 and a 141, other than much better flotation with the 141. And if you really take your sled to maximum capability, the race versions are there for the extremist.
 

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I think a new Riot 800 in 1.6 is in my future. Its what I basically tried to do with my 16 M800. And just for fun, I bought a 2001 pantera 1000 for me and my new girlfriend. It only had 1000 miles on it and it was cheap. It will pass everything but a gas station, just a hoot pulling the skis at 60 mph passing other sleds. So new one in the stable for guys night, and I will buy up cheap leftovers and have fun.
 

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Getting back to the "dealer to dealer" thing for a minute. When I was looking for a 7000 limited, I found one at a dealer in WI. Don't remember which one. I heard rumors about the D to D program, or whatever you call it, asked them about it, they said there was no such thing. I found the elTigre I now own, still far away, but closer than WI., asked the dealer about the D to D, no such thing. Bill's marine in MD. They were getting out of the sled business completely. I then asked my dealer about it, as they had not one 7000 in the place, and they also said that there was no D to D. They have since closed, so I can't go back and ask them. My point here, I guess, is that the program is only as good as the people who will get off their ass and try to help you.
 

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Getting back to the "dealer to dealer" thing for a minute. When I was looking for a 7000 limited, I found one at a dealer in WI. Don't remember which one. I heard rumors about the D to D program, or whatever you call it, asked them about it, they said there was no such thing. I found the elTigre I now own, still far away, but closer than WI., asked the dealer about the D to D, no such thing. Bill's marine in MD. They were getting out of the sled business completely. I then asked my dealer about it, as they had not one 7000 in the place, and they also said that there was no D to D. They have since closed, so I can't go back and ask them. My point here, I guess, is that the program is only as good as the people who will get off their ass and try to help you.
The “ No such thing” (D to D) was because that dealer (or “those” dealer’S) was/were only interested in clearing their current stock.
Any good dealer wanting to truly build a good customer/dealer relationship would have searched for what you wanted. As quite often, the dealers will perform a trade (not just the one dealer outright purchasing the sought sled to sell), this can help both dealers in some cases by the selling dealer quite possibly getting (in return) a sled they have had a couple requests/inquiries for, but hadn’t yet made another order to get. Kind of like a “win-win” for both dealers.
 

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I don't mean to hijack this thread but my reason for going 4 stroke was reliability. All my 2 strokes required a lot of maintenance including some pretty serious stuff like pistons, crankshaft bearings, broken connecting rods etc. There was always someone in our group that broke down hindering the rest of the ride for that day. I always used to say, " I wish they would install a motorcycle engine in a sled as those go for 75K miles without having to open up the engine." So when AC came out with their 4 strokes, I wasn't expecting to run 75K miles but I was interested in anything that leaned toward that. I think of all the blown firecats, ZR's and wildcats and all my Polaris Indy's of the past and Fusions and Edge more recently and I am so thankful for my little 4 stroke. Been happy ever since chugging along enjoying some trouble free rides. It's just what I have been experiencing in my 45+ years on the trails.
In my long riding experience, 2 stroke maintenance has gone down immensely since about 2006. At that time i owned a Xfire7 and the only things I had to put into it were stuff I wanted to do. Could have rode it to 10k miles before changing rings. Now you've got the ctec and reliability is even better. 4 strokes have their place, but most "maintenance" on 2 strokes these days is self inflicted or nothing more routine and same that you'd be doing on a 4 stroke anyway. Case closed IMO.
 

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In my long riding experience, 2 stroke maintenance has gone down immensely since about 2006. At that time i owned a Xfire7 and the only things I had to put into it were stuff I wanted to do. Could have rode it to 10k miles before changing rings. Now you've got the ctec and reliability is even better. 4 strokes have their place, but most "maintenance" on 2 strokes these days is self inflicted or nothing more routine and same that you'd be doing on a 4 stroke anyway. Case closed IMO.
It’s funny you mentioned 2006, my maintenance has been chassis and driveline/drivetrain dating back to 1989 season.

It takes some very foolish mistreatment to make a 2-stroke need unusual maintenance due to the way manufacturers set them up for warranty coverages.
In other words, the manu’s don’t send out sleds ready to massively grenade just because they want to have to cover everything under the sun for Wty. (Short of the 2003 F7 debacle (misclaibrated oil pumps and lean mapping, along with some having restricted bulkhead heat exchangers)
None of that was intentional, it was rushed into production and crated and shipped before this could be caught.
 

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Guess you don't understand that cat will be moving sleds dealer to dealer, just as car dealers do.
Just like they did back between 2003-20_?

You get this, I get this, anyone that’s dealt with this in years past gets this, heck, even Greg B knows of this, just always seems to be one that doesn’t, or doesn’t want to listen to fact of reality.

Great comments along the way.
you wanna know what was amazing, we were able to fill most orders with old field inventory from around the country when we had production problems this year and we were not over stocked at dealers. Our stuff is hard to ship compared to a snowmobile. Textron needs to get rid of the pile of inventory before it will ever think of making a profit.
 

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I talked to the dealer in my area this morning and asked about details he knows. His rep had no more info at this time than what everyone on the internet has been talking about. Said current rebates end today at 5pm and if they don't add some more rebates for the leftover cats he has, then he's not sure how they intend to sell all this leftover stock. He said it's a great idea to move sleds dealer to dealer but he's not pay to ship a sled and then lose money when the margin is already small.
 

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Discussion Starter #71
Cat released a sales program on Friday February 28, for all in stock units

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 

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I live in the Grand Rapids area. I am the first one to drive past multiple dealers and shops to receive top quality sales and service. With that said I am happy to report that I don't have to drive far to receive excellent service on my sleds and tractor. Pokegama Lawn and Sport is awesome.
 

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Except for the ThunderCat, all 7000 and 3000 four strokes cancelled. This to me looks like Yamaha is cutting and running. Kymco was just supplying the ATV motors and it didn't work out. Lets just sell the four stroke with the largest mark-up strategy! I see now they could be slimming things down before Yamaha says "Sayonara". I think one big mistake is cutting the trail sled line up down to basically two sled platforms, (actually really one) is a big mistake. Where is my "LXR" type platform? No nice riding LXR type chassis, for the weekend trail rider like we are (my group) just higher cost "SnoPro" type suspension packages. This makes me think the 2014 to 2017 chassis groups will hold their value long because (now) people like me are going to hang on to them longer, I know now I sure will. And I will also start looking for a non-turbo 7000, while I still can get one with low miles. Another thing, no 129's? Really? Ski-Doo has a 129 line, Polaris has them and even still has a 121, altho I don't know why the 121. Ok to start with nothing here That Arctic Cat now offers will fit in my trailer. Now to be fair on myself I'm selling my short enclosed for an in-line anyway but what about the buyers that have a trailer like mine that isn't selling their trailer? What do they do? Do they go to Ski-Doo or Polaris? Cutting the touring sleds down to one Suzuki Fan-cooled as mentioned is cutting the whole segment out of the market (albeit a small one) I really didn't see how the NA Yamahas were as cost effective as a two stroke (Yamaha found that out) and to keep them at more or less the same price level didn't think was gonna work. The four stroke 3000? Well that went in and out the door faster than my wifes little dog taking a $hit outside on a below zero day!

In summary, I sure hope Kroms hunch is correct that something more MUST be coming from Thief River Falls.
Cause if there isn't then this cost cutting is what parent companies do right before they spin off a subsidiary they see it as a waste of money. The "one model Yamaha" sled is another eye opener. Why? Because they cost more to make than the profit , or lack thereof, it gets in return. Why just basically hi-performance sleds in ProCross line? Why? With all the hype and great handling when introduced, and still better than the competition in my opinion, do we slim this down to basically two models? Why Why Why??? Why cancel out just about all the touring sleds and have as a sole "place-holder"a Twin Spar designed back in 2007 with a Fan-cooled Suzuki? Why are there no prices in the website? All three competitors still have theirs.

I hope not, I really really hope not that there are little if any steam clouds coming out of the stack pipes in the main plant in TRF. But something is up, and it sure ain't the temperature.
 

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why would anyone want to buy an under powered pig of a 3000 or 7000 4 stroke anyhow, Fat has been trimmed, buy a c-tech 2 stroke and enjoy !
 

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why would anyone want to buy an under powered pig of a 3000 or 7000 4 stroke anyhow, Fat has been trimmed, buy a c-tech 2 stroke and enjoy !
Well for starters, there is a market. Why the 3000? Underpowered? Let me break some new to you. They, the 3000's would make great rentals. The Doo Dealer in Eagle River Wisconsin (you know "The Snowmobile Capitol of the World") rent mostly 600ACE 2 cylinder four strokes. Why? Because non sledders that rent can think of it more like a car. And it takes no thought to "watch the oil tank light". I had a Turbo 660, ran that thing everywhere, never had any problem keeping up with my friends. And it topped out at 96mph. That ain't bad and it got 19mpg. The 7000's supposed to be pretty good as far as speed. My friends wife drives a 5000 non turbo, she didn't have any trouble keeping up with me. If you think they are underpowered, you haven't driven one.
 
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