Arctic Cat Forum banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,700 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
A couple years ago I acquired a NOS set of Black Magic twin pipes for my 1998 ZR 440. I am now In the middle of building the sled, but I can't figure out why the PTO side pipe has two threaded bungs welded into the center of the expansion chamber, one above the other, and both different sizes. The MAG side pipe doesn't have any bungs, and the two that are in the PTO side I would think are way too far back for EGT sensors. Does anybody know what these bungs were for? I'm just going to plug them, but I'm curious as to what these were for.
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,616 Posts
Definitely not for egt probes, those would go in the Y pipe 1” from gasket surface. They could be pipes for a newer model that had the temp sensor for ignition timing. So, just plug ‘em and run.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
19,796 Posts
Definitely not for egt probes, those would go in the Y pipe 1” from gasket surface. They could be pipes for a newer model that had the temp sensor for ignition timing. So, just plug ‘em and run.
I was wondering if some later model SP pipes were mixed together? Did those not begin using pipe temp sensors in 2001?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,631 Posts
I would say one is for a O2 sensor and the other may be for a mid pipe temp sensor to use on a dyno. Both of these would be used on a dyno for tuning. It could be also one is for a the old style O2 sensor and one for the new style O2 sensor. The new style is a faster acting O2 sensor and use a bigger thread diameter. There is one other thing one hole may have been to measure the pipe pressure at WOT to get the correct stinger diameter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
741 Posts
It might be because you put those on a "consumer" 98, which is a 97 ZR440 with ZR2 skin. The 98 race race sleds were still in ZR1 skin and had different motors that had cable-less power valves. But, I do not believe they had temp or O2 sensors, so those things are still a wonder?? It could just be whoever had them modified them for something. But that thing is CLEAN! Nice! Between my buddies and my brother and I, we have three 97's and three 98 consumers like yours. (6 out of 16 cats for 6 guys to ride) They're a blast. We call ours "the antiques."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,700 Posts
Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Zrt1200 that could be, I was talking to a friend of mine about it yesterday and he also thought it may have been for dyno use with an o2 sensor.

Trp97 I found a listing In the black magic book and the 96-01 ZR 440, consumer 440, and zr 500 used the same twin pipes.

Thanks, it's a pretty clean machine. I've had it for 15 years, blew it up in 2005/2006 and started parting it out to fund a new project but still had most of the sled, I finally decided I needed to put it back together, this year, bought another one for parts a while back, im just about ready to send out some of the rear suspension parts to powder coat.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,700 Posts
Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
I was wondering if some later model SP pipes were mixed together? Did those not begin using pipe temp sensors in 2001?

As best I recall, yes.
Makes sense, if they were made to fit 96-01 and were all the same part number. I wasnt aware that the newer sno pros had sensors in them from factory.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,616 Posts
I always wanted a set of these to play with. The cool thing about them is the “Quiet Cannister” as they called it. I believe it was a 94-95 ZR 700 can. I’d probably still choose to run the stock pipe for trails but if I was to build a lake racer I’d like to try these twins.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
19,796 Posts
I was wondering if some later model SP pipes were mixed together?
In relation to my above post (questioning a possible mix-up of pipes), I received an email overnight from member TG2 (TeamGreen2) with some of his observations from afar (password fiasco biting him in the ass also)

Here goes: “Hey Rusty. I was over peaking at Arcticchat. For some reason I can't log in. Don't remember my password. I tried to get it thing wont send. That is why I haven't been over there for a few years. I do read through the stuff every now and then.
I see a guy has a 98 ZR 440 with twins. He is asking about the bungs welded on the pipes. I don't think they are zr 440 twin pipes. 1 pipe maybe, but the other is not a 440 pipe. Look at the pipes they are two different sizes. I blew the one picture up the middle part of the pipe where it says black magic is spaced different. They are about 1 inch difference between the two pipes where they weld that center together. Also one pipe its first bend is a totally different size. Its bigger around they should be the same size. Even though the pipes have bends to fit under the hood. Both pipes chambers length and diameter should be the same. I noticed also there is Black Magic stamped twice on the pipes. Every set I have ever seen. Black Magic is stamped on just 1 pipe. Not two. Even the triple pipes only one pipe has the BM name. If you look at the pipes one black magic is up side down. If they would stamp Black magic on pipes you would think they would be the
same direction? I would get a string out and start measuring the pipes making sure he don't have two different ones. From what I am seeing. They are two different pipes from two different models from what I am seeing. The bungs my guess both pipes should have them. If both pipes are for that machine. I think the one pipe with the bungs is for a 440. its small in size around. Shaped about like my pipes. The other pipe? looks big like on my 650. Looks totally out of place to me. I know BM before they closed the doors was making some horse **** stuff. I wouldn't doubt it they found two pipes just go close enough threw them together and sold them as new old stock. I could be wrong. something just does not look right. I was around the stuff enough in mid 90's when Vaith was selling the stuff. I saw pretty much everything they were selling in that time fame up until about 2000. That is when Tim Berg Sold out. Greg said the new owners for BM. The stuff was pretty sad.”


Just a thought... I dunno, But, something about those pipes just seemed weird to me as well. Maybe I’d do the string idea and measure to certain lengths (and compare their diameter/girth’s) at various points. He could be onto something.....? I dunno
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,700 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
I was wondering if some later model SP pipes were mixed together?
In relation to my above post (questioning a possible mix-up of pipes), I received an email overnight from member TG2 (TeamGreen2) with some of his observations from afar (password fiasco biting him in the ass also)

Here goes: “Hey Rusty. I was over peaking at Arcticchat. For some reason I can't log in. Don't remember my password. I tried to get it thing wont send. That is why I haven't been over there for a few years. I do read through the stuff every now and then.
I see a guy has a 98 ZR 440 with twins. He is asking about the bungs welded on the pipes. I don't think they are zr 440 twin pipes. 1 pipe maybe, but the other is not a 440 pipe. Look at the pipes they are two different sizes. I blew the one picture up the middle part of the pipe where it says black magic is spaced different. They are about 1 inch difference between the two pipes where they weld that center together. Also one pipe its first bend is a totally different size. Its bigger around they should be the same size. Even though the pipes have bends to fit under the hood. Both pipes chambers length and diameter should be the same. I noticed also there is Black Magic stamped twice on the pipes. Every set I have ever seen. Black Magic is stamped on just 1 pipe. Not two. Even the triple pipes only one pipe has the BM name. If you look at the pipes one black magic is up side down. If they would stamp Black magic on pipes you would think they would be the
same direction? I would get a string out and start measuring the pipes making sure he don't have two different ones. From what I am seeing. They are two different pipes from two different models from what I am seeing. The bungs my guess both pipes should have them. If both pipes are for that machine. I think the one pipe with the bungs is for a 440. its small in size around. Shaped about like my pipes. The other pipe? looks big like on my 650. Looks totally out of place to me. I know BM before they closed the doors was making some horse **** stuff. I wouldn't doubt it they found two pipes just go close enough threw them together and sold them as new old stock. I could be wrong. something just does not look right. I was around the stuff enough in mid 90's when Vaith was selling the stuff. I saw pretty much everything they were selling in that time fame up until about 2000. That is when Tim Berg Sold out. Greg said the new owners for BM. The stuff was pretty sad.”


Just a thought...
, But, something about those pipes just seemed weird to me as well. Maybe I’d do the string idea and measure to certain lengths (and compare their diameter/girth’s) at various points. He could be onto something.....?
Yeah I noticed they are different from the other 440 pipes I've seen on the internet, granted I haven't found many pictures, and none of the ones I found had the quiet can either. They do however match up to the picture in the Black Magic book minus the stampings and bungs.

I just measured the pipes and they are both the same, using a string to wrap around the expansion chambers both measure 16 3/8" around. Length of the large sections of expansion chambers before the bends is 7" long on both. The runner from the head to expansion chambers are both 28.5" long, and from the expansion chamber to the pipe that enters the muffler they are both 10 3/8" long.
The reinforcement pads where the top pipe lays on the lower pipe line up perfect. The only thing I noticed is the bottom pipe contacts the square cross member bar which I believe I read in 1997 ZR 440 thread you either notch the bar, or the pipe gets dinged. And as I have it installed now, the mag side exhaust flange is about 3/8" longer than the PTO flange, I tried the longer one o the PTO side but that seemed way off.

I'm glad to hear from someone who has run the twin pipes on the 440s, I was actually hoping to talk to some of you guys at some point, although I am going a slightly different route on clutching, and plan on using a P85 primary, the end result and RPM will be the same, I believe 9200rpm peak.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
19,796 Posts
@Romp

I’ve just noted myself in past years, that a lot of the pipes in BM catalogs seemed to be “copied” pics from other engine/sled combos (and weren’t truly representative of the actual machine listed in said particular charts.

I’ve never truly been a BM fan, EVER. Original owner (TB) was a shady character from what a very close associate has informed me of years ago.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,903 Posts
Tell you this from a welders prospective, those weren't welded by the same guy at the same time. One even looks like a hardware store coupling

Just thinkin that
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,616 Posts
They definitely look 2 different sizes. I didn't notice that before but I never blew up the picture either. You'll find out in a damn hurry when its fired up if they'll work or not.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
19,796 Posts
They definitely look 2 different sizes. I didn't notice that before but I never blew up the picture either. You'll find out in a damn hurry when its fired up if they'll work or not.
Agreed, that middle portion of the chamber itself is definitely different overall in length!!

The cones tapering down to the stingers also appear to be different in ANGLE (relating to DISTANCE allowed to finish its size reduction)

Like I said before, close friend informed me that “if you ever shook hands with T. Berg, to make sure and count your fingers/thumbs (to make sure you got all of them back!!)” < His words, not mine....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,700 Posts
Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
The expansion chambers are the same size, the neck down to the muffler is also the same neck down angle and length , with the exception of the outboard side of the inner pipe being slightly shorter due to the outward bend it makes towards the muffler. Its possible it was an optical illusion in the picture, but here are the measurements the best I could due while taking pictures. I measured the large part of the expansion chambers diameter and length, the neck down length to the muffler, and diameter of the neck down 2" down from the large section of the expansion chambers, and 2" before the large sections of the expansion chambers.

I also believe I had the left and right exhaust flanges flip flopped the wrong way. As of right now I dont have the engine bolted down in the machine either, I've been waiting on my clutch to do the alignment before I tighten the engine down, and I wanted to test fit the pipes with everything loose to see how they fit. After I switched the flanges left to right they look much better.
 

Attachments

1 - 20 of 23 Posts
About this Discussion
22 Replies
7 Participants
Jeff H
Arctic Cat Forum
Arctic Cat forum is a community to discuss Arctic Cat 400, 440, 500, 650, snowmobiles, sleds, ATV's and more. Join the fun!
Full Forum Listing
Top