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Old 01-06-2010, 04:46 PM   #1
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will not start when i checked under the y pipe i saw some gas there does that mean my whole engine/pipe is full of gas??? any help or ideas are welcomed.... just put new plugs in and it did not work
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Old 01-06-2010, 06:12 PM   #2
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Sled: 2000 ZRT 1107 Ron Hunyady Motor
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09-10 Mileage: 1000
08-09 Mileage: 1000
07-08 Mileage: 1000
06-07 Mileage: 1000
Need to determine if it a fuel issue (doesn't necessarily sound like it unless it is over flooded), a compression issue or a spark issue. THis is a quick "how to" on how to see if it is a spark issue:

Closed Ignition: old style ignition. Primarily Pre-1998.
A "normally closed" ignition which simply means that the wiring needs to have a closed circuit or uninterrupted circuit in order to run. If you cut any ignition wire in a "normally closed" system the engine will die because the power for the ignition runs through all of the switches; key, kill, tether, throttle safety switch, etc. If the connection to any of these is interrupted there will no longer be power to the ignition system and spark will cease. With the "normally closed" system if a connector comes loose or a wire gets cut the spark will stop until the wiring is repaired completing the circuit again. On the closed style ignition the center wire is the ground wire for both the kill switch and the throttle safety switch, so if you cut the center wire you are disabling both switches and opening the circuit so the engine won't run. All Cats 1997 and earlier run a closed ignition, with the exception of the 1997 ZR 580 that is open ignition.

Diagnosing no spark, weak spark or intermittent spark issues

The first thing you want to do is separate if it an issue in the switches/handlebars or lights or if the issue is in the primary ignition components like the stator, cdi, coils, trigger coil or possibly plugs or plug wires or plug caps.



1. The first thing you want to do is to take the spark plugs out of the cylinder heads, put the spark plugs in the spark plug boots and lay them on the cylinder head so they are grounded. A good place is on a cylinder head bolt away from the cylinder spark plug hole. If you pull the sled over and the spark plug is over the spark plug hole and it sparks it will ignite so make sure the plugs are not near the spark plug holes.
2. Pull the recoil rope and check the spark at the plug. Is there Spark? Is there spark at each spark plug? IS the spark blue (indicating a strong spark) or is it yellow (indicating a “weak” spark).
3. The next step is pretty much the same if you had no spark or a weak spark. On the “Closed” ignition you unplug the 4-prong connector containing the 2 yellow wires. This 4-prong connector sends the power to the lights, hand warmers and tachometer. When you unplug this 4-prong connector you need to put a wire connecting the 2 “non yellow” wires together in the connector. This “closes” or completes the electrical circuit which is needed to check for spark. By putting this jumper wire between the 2 non yellow wires you are bypassing all of your switches (Throttle Safety Switch, Kill tether ect..) and all of your lights, hand warmers ect..in your handlebars. Pull the recoil over and see if you have spark or if the spark is now blue. Carbureted models can be started and run with this 4-prong connector unplugged and the jumper wire in it but you won’t have lights ect..as mentioned before. If you have an EFI, you can only check for spark and it will not start or run with it unplugged. You need it plugged in to power your fuel pump.
4. If you had no spark and by unplugging the 4-prong connector and using the jumper wire you now have spark, that tells you that you have something shorted out in your hand controls, switches like the tether, throttle safety switch or kill switch. If you had weak spark and now have blue spark it also tells you that you have a short or a problem with one of your switches. The most likely culprit is the TSS or kill switch, There is a 3 prong connector in your handlebars that if you unplug and jump the 2 outside prongs it will bypass your kill and TSS switch and you will only be able to start and turn off your sled with the key. The 3 prong connector is usually not by the handlebars next to where you put your hands but rather just a little bit down the steering shaft about at the point where the console containing the key switch is located. If you’re not sure which connector it is, just follow the one group of wires out of the right handlebar area where the TSS and Kill switch are located down to where the plug is located. There are a few other plugs by the handlebar on the right side by the thumb throttle, but they contain yellow wires and are for your hand warmers and thumb warmer and do not have anything to do with the TSS or the Kill switch.
5. If after unplugging the 4-plug switch and using the jumper wire you still do not have spark or the spark is weak looking this tells you that the problem is in the major ignition components like the stator, coils, cdi spark plugs, spark plug wires or trigger coil.
6. The first thing to check are the connections from the stator to the cdi. Make sure all connections are free of moisture, are tight and use dielectric grease on it. Check the ground. You should have a ground wire coming from your stator and your CDI/ECU box. Make sure the grounds are clean, tight and that the ground wires are not broken. Sometimes the ground wire is pinched and broken inside the eyelet connection and is making only intermittent if any connection. Some older model Arctic Cats have the ground up closer to the handle bars on what some would consider the “firewall: of the sled and they are notorious for rusting/corroding out badly.
7. If all of the connections are solid and the ground looks good then you have to start electrically checking components. Most of the twin trigger coils are supposed to ohm out at 90 or so ohms. Some models are 175 ohm trigger ohm specs. Triples are usually 175 ohms. Check your manual to be sure what your specific specs are. View my “testing a pulser/trigger coil” video to see how to test it. It is very easy and quick to test. The frustrating part about the trigger coil is that it can test good, but still be bad.
8. Next you want to test the stator itself. View my “How to test a stator” video to see how to do it. Here is a list of Arctic Cat specs. I am continually adding to it so the list will grow over time so keep checking back:

1994 580 EFI Stator
You stator only has 3 wires. You should have 45 ohms, 450 ohms and of course 490 ohms or so when measured together.
white to green 450 ohms
white to black 45 ohms
Black to green 490-500 ohms
(1 Large Single Coil) Arctic Cat 580cc 1994
Black & White to Black and Red (160 ohms)

1997 Stator 580 Specs
Charge coil #1 450 ohms
Charge coil #2 45 ohms

ZR580 Test Specs 1996 Powder Special
Ignition Charge Coil = Red/White to Black/White = 160 OHMS ( +/- 20%)
Ignition Trigger Coil = Black/Red to Red/White = 17 OHMS ( +/- 20%)

1994 ZR700 with the “old style” 2 coil stacked ignition coils
Charge coil #1 160 ohms +/- 20%
Charge coil #2 17 ohms +/- 20%

1997 ZRT 600
Charge Coil #1 = 20 ohm
Charge Coil #2 = 450 ohm

1993-1999 ZRT800/900/1000
White to Green (Large Coil) 450 ohms
White to Black (Coils in Series) 470 ohms
Green to Black (Small Coil) 20-30 ohms


9. If you have no spark and your trigger tests ok and your stator tests ok then we’re looking at a possible bad CDI box There is no real good way to test the CDI other than swapping the box out with a known good CDI box.
10. If you have no spark and your trigger tests ok and your stator tests ok then we may be looking at a secondary coil issue. The coils can have a couple of issues with them. The first thing you want to do is make sure the spark plug caps are on tight. They just screw on and off the spark plug wire. Many times the best thing to do as long as your wires are long enough is to unscrew the spark plug caps, trim a ½ inch off the end of the wire and then screw the spark plug cap back on. Also, you can unscrew the wire from the coil itself and do the same thing. Trim off about a ½ inch and screw it back on the coil. I had 2 sets of coils go “bad” on my sled and come to find out it was just the spark plug wires were a bit warn at their ends and after I trimmed them and screwed them back together they ran perfect. This condition usually causes a miss or it sputters at higher rpms. Be warned though that I did have one wire that would not unscrew from a coil no matter how hard I tried to turn it and I ended up just tearing the spark plug wire. Also, always check the spark plug gap and set it to the correct spec for that plug. I have seen plugs with the gap too small onthem maing the motor run poorly. As far as putting the coil wires back on here is a general rule of thumb for Cats:
Most sleds fire all the plugs at the same time, multiple times per revolution. A twin will fire both wires twice each revolution, a triple three times( once per 120 degrees because every 120 degrees one of the pistons is at TDC). One of the pulses fires the plug to ignite the fuel/air mix, the other times the pulses are "lost" as the plug fires with the piston not ready for the fuel to burn. That prevents having to have a complex distributor of some kind to route the electricity to the cylinder that needs it. On those types of ignitions, firing order (which spark plug wire goes on which spark plug) is not important.
11. Specificly on Battery EFI sleds here is another thing to check. This was found on a 1996 EXT EFI: it was the relay on the back of the ecu. There are 2 of them back there 1 for the spark and 1 for the fuel pump.

12. Also, bad reeds on a sled will cause it to back fire and run poorly acting like it is an electrical issue.
13. Sled won’t shut off condition: I have seen a few things cause this. First off it is usually a bad ground/broken ground wire. Sometimes it is moisture in the connector. I disconnected my TSS/Kill switch the day my kill switch got moisture in it and my sled wouldn’t shut off. You could have a cdi with an internal short. A bad stator has caused a machine to not shut off.
14.Other issues that I have seen/read that have caused a no spark issue:
A. Guy bought a used sled with the wrong flywheel on it.
B. Frayed wires somewhere in the wiring harness or under the seat were causing a short
C. Guy said sled was only running on one cylinder. He could remove one spark plug wire and it didn’t effect the way the sled ran. His low side coil on his stator read 360 ohms and it should have measured 450 ohms. His low side coil was dying.
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Old 01-07-2010, 12:33 PM   #3
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Sled: 2000 arctic cat zr 600 efi & 94 zr 580
10-11 Mileage:
09-10 Mileage: 150
ATV: none
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blaine @ Jan 6 2010, 05:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
 Quote:
Need to determine if it a fuel issue (doesn't necessarily sound like it unless it is over flooded), a compression issue or a spark issue. THis is a quick "how to" on how to see if it is a spark issue:

Closed Ignition: old style ignition. Primarily Pre-1998.
A "normally closed" ignition which simply means that the wiring needs to have a closed circuit or uninterrupted circuit in order to run. If you cut any ignition wire in a "normally closed" system the engine will die because the power for the ignition runs through all of the switches; key, kill, tether, throttle safety switch, etc. If the connection to any of these is interrupted there will no longer be power to the ignition system and spark will cease. With the "normally closed" system if a connector comes loose or a wire gets cut the spark will stop until the wiring is repaired completing the circuit again. On the closed style ignition the center wire is the ground wire for both the kill switch and the throttle safety switch, so if you cut the center wire you are disabling both switches and opening the circuit so the engine won't run. All Cats 1997 and earlier run a closed ignition, with the exception of the 1997 ZR 580 that is open ignition.

Diagnosing no spark, weak spark or intermittent spark issues

The first thing you want to do is separate if it an issue in the switches/handlebars or lights or if the issue is in the primary ignition components like the stator, cdi, coils, trigger coil or possibly plugs or plug wires or plug caps.



1. The first thing you want to do is to take the spark plugs out of the cylinder heads, put the spark plugs in the spark plug boots and lay them on the cylinder head so they are grounded. A good place is on a cylinder head bolt away from the cylinder spark plug hole. If you pull the sled over and the spark plug is over the spark plug hole and it sparks it will ignite so make sure the plugs are not near the spark plug holes.
2. Pull the recoil rope and check the spark at the plug. Is there Spark? Is there spark at each spark plug? IS the spark blue (indicating a strong spark) or is it yellow (indicating a “weak” spark).
3. The next step is pretty much the same if you had no spark or a weak spark. On the “Closed” ignition you unplug the 4-prong connector containing the 2 yellow wires. This 4-prong connector sends the power to the lights, hand warmers and tachometer. When you unplug this 4-prong connector you need to put a wire connecting the 2 “non yellow” wires together in the connector. This “closes” or completes the electrical circuit which is needed to check for spark. By putting this jumper wire between the 2 non yellow wires you are bypassing all of your switches (Throttle Safety Switch, Kill tether ect..) and all of your lights, hand warmers ect..in your handlebars. Pull the recoil over and see if you have spark or if the spark is now blue. Carbureted models can be started and run with this 4-prong connector unplugged and the jumper wire in it but you won’t have lights ect..as mentioned before. If you have an EFI, you can only check for spark and it will not start or run with it unplugged. You need it plugged in to power your fuel pump.
4. If you had no spark and by unplugging the 4-prong connector and using the jumper wire you now have spark, that tells you that you have something shorted out in your hand controls, switches like the tether, throttle safety switch or kill switch. If you had weak spark and now have blue spark it also tells you that you have a short or a problem with one of your switches. The most likely culprit is the TSS or kill switch, There is a 3 prong connector in your handlebars that if you unplug and jump the 2 outside prongs it will bypass your kill and TSS switch and you will only be able to start and turn off your sled with the key. The 3 prong connector is usually not by the handlebars next to where you put your hands but rather just a little bit down the steering shaft about at the point where the console containing the key switch is located. If you’re not sure which connector it is, just follow the one group of wires out of the right handlebar area where the TSS and Kill switch are located down to where the plug is located. There are a few other plugs by the handlebar on the right side by the thumb throttle, but they contain yellow wires and are for your hand warmers and thumb warmer and do not have anything to do with the TSS or the Kill switch.
5. If after unplugging the 4-plug switch and using the jumper wire you still do not have spark or the spark is weak looking this tells you that the problem is in the major ignition components like the stator, coils, cdi spark plugs, spark plug wires or trigger coil.
6. The first thing to check are the connections from the stator to the cdi. Make sure all connections are free of moisture, are tight and use dielectric grease on it. Check the ground. You should have a ground wire coming from your stator and your CDI/ECU box. Make sure the grounds are clean, tight and that the ground wires are not broken. Sometimes the ground wire is pinched and broken inside the eyelet connection and is making only intermittent if any connection. Some older model Arctic Cats have the ground up closer to the handle bars on what some would consider the “firewall: of the sled and they are notorious for rusting/corroding out badly.
7. If all of the connections are solid and the ground looks good then you have to start electrically checking components. Most of the twin trigger coils are supposed to ohm out at 90 or so ohms. Some models are 175 ohm trigger ohm specs. Triples are usually 175 ohms. Check your manual to be sure what your specific specs are. View my “testing a pulser/trigger coil” video to see how to test it. It is very easy and quick to test. The frustrating part about the trigger coil is that it can test good, but still be bad.
8. Next you want to test the stator itself. View my “How to test a stator” video to see how to do it. Here is a list of Arctic Cat specs. I am continually adding to it so the list will grow over time so keep checking back:

1994 580 EFI Stator
You stator only has 3 wires. You should have 45 ohms, 450 ohms and of course 490 ohms or so when measured together.
white to green 450 ohms
white to black 45 ohms
Black to green 490-500 ohms
(1 Large Single Coil) Arctic Cat 580cc 1994
Black & White to Black and Red (160 ohms)

1997 Stator 580 Specs
Charge coil #1 450 ohms
Charge coil #2 45 ohms

ZR580 Test Specs 1996 Powder Special
Ignition Charge Coil = Red/White to Black/White = 160 OHMS ( +/- 20%)
Ignition Trigger Coil = Black/Red to Red/White = 17 OHMS ( +/- 20%)

1994 ZR700 with the “old style” 2 coil stacked ignition coils
Charge coil #1 160 ohms +/- 20%
Charge coil #2 17 ohms +/- 20%

1997 ZRT 600
Charge Coil #1 = 20 ohm
Charge Coil #2 = 450 ohm

1993-1999 ZRT800/900/1000
White to Green (Large Coil) 450 ohms
White to Black (Coils in Series) 470 ohms
Green to Black (Small Coil) 20-30 ohms


9. If you have no spark and your trigger tests ok and your stator tests ok then we’re looking at a possible bad CDI box There is no real good way to test the CDI other than swapping the box out with a known good CDI box.
10. If you have no spark and your trigger tests ok and your stator tests ok then we may be looking at a secondary coil issue. The coils can have a couple of issues with them. The first thing you want to do is make sure the spark plug caps are on tight. They just screw on and off the spark plug wire. Many times the best thing to do as long as your wires are long enough is to unscrew the spark plug caps, trim a ½ inch off the end of the wire and then screw the spark plug cap back on. Also, you can unscrew the wire from the coil itself and do the same thing. Trim off about a ½ inch and screw it back on the coil. I had 2 sets of coils go “bad” on my sled and come to find out it was just the spark plug wires were a bit warn at their ends and after I trimmed them and screwed them back together they ran perfect. This condition usually causes a miss or it sputters at higher rpms. Be warned though that I did have one wire that would not unscrew from a coil no matter how hard I tried to turn it and I ended up just tearing the spark plug wire. Also, always check the spark plug gap and set it to the correct spec for that plug. I have seen plugs with the gap too small onthem maing the motor run poorly. As far as putting the coil wires back on here is a general rule of thumb for Cats:
Most sleds fire all the plugs at the same time, multiple times per revolution. A twin will fire both wires twice each revolution, a triple three times( once per 120 degrees because every 120 degrees one of the pistons is at TDC). One of the pulses fires the plug to ignite the fuel/air mix, the other times the pulses are "lost" as the plug fires with the piston not ready for the fuel to burn. That prevents having to have a complex distributor of some kind to route the electricity to the cylinder that needs it. On those types of ignitions, firing order (which spark plug wire goes on which spark plug) is not important.
11. Specificly on Battery EFI sleds here is another thing to check. This was found on a 1996 EXT EFI: it was the relay on the back of the ecu. There are 2 of them back there 1 for the spark and 1 for the fuel pump.

12. Also, bad reeds on a sled will cause it to back fire and run poorly acting like it is an electrical issue.
13. Sled won’t shut off condition: I have seen a few things cause this. First off it is usually a bad ground/broken ground wire. Sometimes it is moisture in the connector. I disconnected my TSS/Kill switch the day my kill switch got moisture in it and my sled wouldn’t shut off. You could have a cdi with an internal short. A bad stator has caused a machine to not shut off.
14.Other issues that I have seen/read that have caused a no spark issue:
A. Guy bought a used sled with the wrong flywheel on it.
B. Frayed wires somewhere in the wiring harness or under the seat were causing a short
C. Guy said sled was only running on one cylinder. He could remove one spark plug wire and it didn’t effect the way the sled ran. His low side coil on his stator read 360 ohms and it should have measured 450 ohms. His low side coil was dying.[/b]
ttt
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Old 01-07-2010, 12:45 PM   #4
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spoo18 @ Jan 6 2010, 03:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
 Quote:
will not start when i checked under the y pipe i saw some gas there does that mean my whole engine/pipe is full of gas??? any help or ideas are welcomed.... just put new plugs in and it did not work[/b]
No.

Is it getting spark? Is it getting fuel? Does it have compression? Blaine provided a tremendous amount of info. Your original request does not provide enough of anything to diagnose or solve the problem.
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Old 01-07-2010, 03:51 PM   #5
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10-11 Mileage:
09-10 Mileage: 150
ATV: none
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (94ZR580 @ Jan 7 2010, 11:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
 Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spoo18 @ Jan 6 2010, 03:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
 Quote:
will not start when i checked under the y pipe i saw some gas there does that mean my whole engine/pipe is full of gas??? any help or ideas are welcomed.... just put new plugs in and it did not work[/b]
No.

Is it getting spark? Is it getting fuel? Does it have compression? Blaine provided a tremendous amount of info. Your original request does not provide enough of anything to diagnose or solve the problem.
[/b][/quote]
well it was definately flooded took the pipe off and gas poured out of it stuck it back on and kept pulling and finally fired
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Old 01-07-2010, 07:29 PM   #6
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08-09 Mileage: 210
07-08 Mileage: 250
06-07 Mileage: 300
Floats sticking open?
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Old 01-07-2010, 09:19 PM   #7
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (insaincat @ Jan 7 2010, 06:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
 Quote:
Floats sticking open?[/b]
no idea how to i test this?
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Old 01-07-2010, 09:22 PM   #8
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06-07 Mileage: 300
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spoo18 @ Jan 7 2010, 10:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
 Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (insaincat @ Jan 7 2010, 06:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
 Quote:
Floats sticking open?[/b]
no idea how to i test this?
[/b][/quote]

You will have to pull the carbs off. Turn them over and you will find 4 screws at the corners of the float bowl. Remove the screws and gently remove the bowl. The float is in there. Might as well clean the carbs too!
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Old 01-07-2010, 09:24 PM   #9
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (insaincat @ Jan 7 2010, 08:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
 Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spoo18 @ Jan 7 2010, 10:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
 Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (insaincat @ Jan 7 2010, 06:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
 Quote:
Floats sticking open?[/b]
no idea how to i test this?
[/b][/quote]

You will have to pull the carbs off. Turn them over and you will find 4 screws at the corners of the float bowl. Remove the screws and gently remove the bowl. The float is in there. Might as well clean the carbs too!
[/b][/quote]
that is what i was thinking about doing is just cleaning the carbs again!
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Old 01-07-2010, 09:25 PM   #10
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08-09 Mileage: 210
07-08 Mileage: 250
06-07 Mileage: 300
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spoo18 @ Jan 7 2010, 10:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
 Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (insaincat @ Jan 7 2010, 08:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
 Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spoo18 @ Jan 7 2010, 10:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
 Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (insaincat @ Jan 7 2010, 06:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
 Quote:
Floats sticking open?[/b]
no idea how to i test this?
[/b][/quote]

You will have to pull the carbs off. Turn them over and you will find 4 screws at the corners of the float bowl. Remove the screws and gently remove the bowl. The float is in there. Might as well clean the carbs too!
[/b][/quote]
that is what i was thinking about doing is just cleaning the carbs again!
[/b][/quote]

Did you clean out the jets and clean the needles?
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