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Old 01-19-2007, 10:06 PM   #11
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tiggershark @ Jan 19 2007, 12:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
 Quote:
Ive been thinking about modifying my choke also. I would just like to lower the rpms when the choke is doing its thing. It rev's way too high on a cold motor.
My 03 has a manual choke and to tell you the truth, it works better, or at least I like it better.
I believe the only way to keep choke off is to keep electicity going to it all day, like mentioned earlier (correct me if I'm wrong) I'll keep watching this post, I am very interested in how this turns out.[/b]
I've been doing more research on electric chokes. From what I've been reading, they are frequently subject to failure and the excerpt below explains ways to get around the electric choke. Fortunately for those of us with problematic chokes, the carburetor has a primer built into it. As a matter of fact, when I went to start my Cat after two and a half months of sitting idle, it wouldn't fire until I used the primer. I also have an old two stroke, dirt race bike with a primer only, no choke and kick start. It has worked flawlessly for many years. Sooooo, I'd say that if we use the primer, we might not need the electric choke at all. I'm going to find the easiest way to temporarily disable the electric choke to see if I can get it to operate using the primer only. If it works without it, I permanently disable it.

Below is some good reading on electric chokes. Have a look and let us know if you'll be giving the electric choke the boot. If you do, let us know how things work without it.

Eliminate automatic choke. Most of the GY6 scooter engines seem to come equipped with the Keihin style CV carburetor with automatic choke. In theory, this is a nice feature - the choke turns on by itself when needed and then shuts itself off - assuming it all works properly. Unfortunately, the automatic choke on these carbs seems to have a tendency to stick ON at times. As a result, the air/fuel mixture will be way too rich. This KILLS performance. There are a few ways to deal with this... one is to just remove and block off all passages in the carb for the automatic choke. An epoxy such as JB Weld can be used or one of the epoxy putties commonly found in automotive stores. If you primarily drive in warm weather, then the choke may not be needed anyway. However, if you drive in cooler climates, then you may need a way to richen the mixture so that you can get your engine started easier. Getting a whole new carburetor with a manual choke is one idea. Some of the newer Dazon buggies (go karts) are supposed to come with a manual choke carb on their GY6 engine. Also, a Mikuni TM24 carburetor can be used as a substitute, but since it's a slide carb then the throttle cable will need to be modified or replaced. The TM24 carburetor (or other manual choke carbs) also may require a spacer on the intake manifold to help the float bowl clear the engine shroud underneath. Another way to get fuel enrichment on a stock carb with choke removed is to add one of the plunger primers that are made for use on snowmobile or ultralight engines. This primer plunger can be pumped and squirt fuel into the intake and help with cold weather starting. A small 1/8" fitting needs to be added where the fuel is squirted into the carburetor or intake manifold. Also, a 1/8" hose needs to be added to supply fuel to the plunger primer. This supply line can be T'ed off the main fuel line or fuel can be tapped off the float bowl or however it works best on your application.
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Old 01-21-2007, 01:56 PM   #12
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I just thought of something...

Your idea will not work. The choke comes on when the temp of the wax inside it drops. It uses power sent to it from the engine to heat the wax which will slowly shut the choke off.

I would just leave it be. It doesnt harm anything in my opinion. I work on them for a living, and I have yet to have a problem with one that wasnt caused by someone removing it.
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Old 01-21-2007, 02:40 PM   #13
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CFM-Z440 @ Jan 21 2007, 02:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
 Quote:
I just thought of something...

Your idea will not work. The choke comes on when the temp of the wax inside it drops. It uses power sent to it from the engine to heat the wax which will slowly shut the choke off.

I would just leave it be. It doesnt harm anything in my opinion. I work on them for a living, and I have yet to have a problem with one that wasnt caused by someone removing it.[/b]

You are correct in saying that my idea will not work. I had already pointed that out a couple of posts back. As far as the chokes not causing problems, in all due respect, you're wrong. Having a device that activates when it shouldn't (i.e. when the engine is warm) is, in my opinion, a poor design. Having to wait a minute or more for engine rpm to drop before I can shift into gear as a result of the choke being engaged, is to me, ridiculous. Imagine getting in your car to drive to work but the transmission will not engage because the engine is revving at 3500 rpm! Would you consider that as being acceptable? Another aspect of electric choke failure is that if the choke malfunctions, it will stay permanently engaged thus causing the engine to run rich. This will have a negative effect on engine performance and will also contribute to excessive fuel consumption. Electric chokes do malfunction.

Now, since you seem to know something about the electric choke, will the choke (enrichening system) effectiveness be eliminated if the choke is removed? If the choke is removed, would covering the hole with JB weld be all that is needed to seal the system? Also, there is a primer on the carb. In lieu of the choke, will the primer be sufficient for cold engine starts?

Thanks.
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Old 01-23-2007, 01:31 AM   #14
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Borat @ Jan 21 2007, 02:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
 Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CFM-Z440 @ Jan 21 2007, 02:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
 Quote:
I just thought of something...

Your idea will not work. The choke comes on when the temp of the wax inside it drops. It uses power sent to it from the engine to heat the wax which will slowly shut the choke off.

I would just leave it be. It doesnt harm anything in my opinion. I work on them for a living, and I have yet to have a problem with one that wasnt caused by someone removing it.[/b]

You are correct in saying that my idea will not work. I had already pointed that out a couple of posts back. As far as the chokes not causing problems, in all due respect, you're wrong. Having a device that activates when it shouldn't (i.e. when the engine is warm) is, in my opinion, a poor design. Having to wait a minute or more for engine rpm to drop before I can shift into gear as a result of the choke being engaged, is to me, ridiculous. Imagine getting in your car to drive to work but the transmission will not engage because the engine is revving at 3500 rpm! Would you consider that as being acceptable? Another aspect of electric choke failure is that if the choke malfunctions, it will stay permanently engaged thus causing the engine to run rich. This will have a negative effect on engine performance and will also contribute to excessive fuel consumption. Electric chokes do malfunction.

Now, since you seem to know something about the electric choke, will the choke (enrichening system) effectiveness be eliminated if the choke is removed? If the choke is removed, would covering the hole with JB weld be all that is needed to seal the system? Also, there is a primer on the carb. In lieu of the choke, will the primer be sufficient for cold engine starts?

Thanks.
[/b][/quote]


Depends on how cold you are talking. With nothing more than a primer, it would fire and then die if used in cold weather. I think it would be pretty unforgiving in any climate, because you would have to let it warm up before you could go anywhere. If you hit the gas it would just die.

If you want a real fix, get a carb for an older model like an 04' They still had a cable choke. There were really no other significant changes in the carb than that. You would also need a cable and lever setup for an 04'

I have never had trouble getting one in gear from the choke operation unless the idle setting was set too high. It sounds to me like you have somewhat of an extreme case, or your idle may be set too high. I bet if you turn your idle setting down just even slightly, you will be suprised in the difference it makes.

Arctic Cat was simply trying to make them idiot proof with out the expence of fuel injection. They lisen to the wrong group of complaints in my opinion. Also the only time the enrichening valve/choke makes any significant difference in the fuel mixture is when the throttle is closed. Once you are moving it has little to no effect. So that throws poor performance and excessive fuel use out the window.

So in my opinion it is not really a problem.
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Old 01-23-2007, 11:30 AM   #15
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Is there a way to lower the rpms while the electric choke/ enrichment is doing its thing? A seperate screw for the fast idle portion? I would like to tame mine down a bit. The electric choke works very well on my 05 500, just needs a little fine tuning.
I have started it in gear (brake lever pulled in) and I dont have to wait for the rpms to come down, but thats not really the right way to get around it.
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Old 01-23-2007, 12:21 PM   #16
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My choke has stuck twice. The 1st time, it cleared up witin a few minutes. That was several weeks ago. The 2nd time (Saturday), I messed with it for about 45 mins. Finally, I guess I covered the intake enough and heard a thump from the carb. It was fine the rest of the day. Does the carb need to be cleaned? I only have about 200 miles on it.
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Old 01-23-2007, 05:12 PM   #17
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My choke doses some weird stuff too but only in the winter. Some days I have to keep adjusting the idle to keep it running after it has worms up!
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Old 01-23-2007, 08:03 PM   #18
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I tried starting my H1 when it was 0 degrees outside last weekend. I had to talk nice, then talk dirty, then apologize, then cry, then laugh, go drink a cup of coffee, then look at it adoringly/angrily/respectfully, then she fired up and stayed running. NOW, I will admit that the plug was likely fouled from the prior pilot jet/exhaust combo that I had in it (55 pilot with stock exhaust...no good), so that had a play in it I'm sure. Regardless, I wasn't impressed with the autochoke at that time. The only way to keep it running was to keep priming it.
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Old 01-23-2007, 11:22 PM   #19
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CFM-Z440 @ Jan 23 2007, 02:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
 Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Borat @ Jan 21 2007, 02:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
 Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CFM-Z440 @ Jan 21 2007, 02:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
 Quote:
I just thought of something...

Your idea will not work. The choke comes on when the temp of the wax inside it drops. It uses power sent to it from the engine to heat the wax which will slowly shut the choke off.

I would just leave it be. It doesnt harm anything in my opinion. I work on them for a living, and I have yet to have a problem with one that wasnt caused by someone removing it.[/b]

You are correct in saying that my idea will not work. I had already pointed that out a couple of posts back. As far as the chokes not causing problems, in all due respect, you're wrong. Having a device that activates when it shouldn't (i.e. when the engine is warm) is, in my opinion, a poor design. Having to wait a minute or more for engine rpm to drop before I can shift into gear as a result of the choke being engaged, is to me, ridiculous. Imagine getting in your car to drive to work but the transmission will not engage because the engine is revving at 3500 rpm! Would you consider that as being acceptable? Another aspect of electric choke failure is that if the choke malfunctions, it will stay permanently engaged thus causing the engine to run rich. This will have a negative effect on engine performance and will also contribute to excessive fuel consumption. Electric chokes do malfunction.

Now, since you seem to know something about the electric choke, will the choke (enrichening system) effectiveness be eliminated if the choke is removed? If the choke is removed, would covering the hole with JB weld be all that is needed to seal the system? Also, there is a primer on the carb. In lieu of the choke, will the primer be sufficient for cold engine starts?

Thanks.
[/b][/quote]


Depends on how cold you are talking. With nothing more than a primer, it would fire and then die if used in cold weather. I think it would be pretty unforgiving in any climate, because you would have to let it warm up before you could go anywhere. If you hit the gas it would just die.

If you want a real fix, get a carb for an older model like an 04' They still had a cable choke. There were really no other significant changes in the carb than that. You would also need a cable and lever setup for an 04'

I have never had trouble getting one in gear from the choke operation unless the idle setting was set too high. It sounds to me like you have somewhat of an extreme case, or your idle may be set too high. I bet if you turn your idle setting down just even slightly, you will be suprised in the difference it makes.

Arctic Cat was simply trying to make them idiot proof with out the expence of fuel injection. They lisen to the wrong group of complaints in my opinion. Also the only time the enrichening valve/choke makes any significant difference in the fuel mixture is when the throttle is closed. Once you are moving it has little to no effect. So that throws poor performance and excessive fuel use out the window.

So in my opinion it is not really a problem.
[/b][/quote]

With regard to setting the idle screw, that goes without saying. If the freaking choke worked right, I wouldn't constantly adjusting the idle screw. I will be looking at an alternative method to replace the electric joke and I don't plan to buy an new carb. I might pull the electric choke to look at the interior dimensions of the needle/plunger and have one fabbed up at a machine shop and figure out an method to actuate it.

Pardon my ignorance but would you please explain how leaving the enrichening circuit engaged will not have an effect on fuel consumption or performance? I know from experience that if I leave the enrichening circuit engaged on my KLR 650 (same carb but with manual enrichener) after the engine is warmed up, the engine is sluggish and I certainly burn more fuel. You might want to do a little homework in this regard.

Below is a quote from a site that works with CV carbs. I've posted the full version previously.

4) Eliminate automatic choke. Most of the GY6 scooter engines seem to come equipped with the Keihin style CV carburetor with automatic choke. In theory, this is a nice feature - the choke turns on by itself when needed and then shuts itself off - assuming it all works properly. Unfortunately, the automatic choke on these carbs seems to have a tendency to stick ON at times. As a result, the air/fuel mixture will be way too rich. This KILLS performance.
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Old 01-24-2007, 10:42 PM   #20
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Borat @ Jan 23 2007, 11:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
 Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CFM-Z440 @ Jan 23 2007, 02:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
 Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Borat @ Jan 21 2007, 02:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
 Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CFM-Z440 @ Jan 21 2007, 02:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
 Quote:
I just thought of something...

Your idea will not work. The choke comes on when the temp of the wax inside it drops. It uses power sent to it from the engine to heat the wax which will slowly shut the choke off.

I would just leave it be. It doesnt harm anything in my opinion. I work on them for a living, and I have yet to have a problem with one that wasnt caused by someone removing it.[/b]

You are correct in saying that my idea will not work. I had already pointed that out a couple of posts back. As far as the chokes not causing problems, in all due respect, you're wrong. Having a device that activates when it shouldn't (i.e. when the engine is warm) is, in my opinion, a poor design. Having to wait a minute or more for engine rpm to drop before I can shift into gear as a result of the choke being engaged, is to me, ridiculous. Imagine getting in your car to drive to work but the transmission will not engage because the engine is revving at 3500 rpm! Would you consider that as being acceptable? Another aspect of electric choke failure is that if the choke malfunctions, it will stay permanently engaged thus causing the engine to run rich. This will have a negative effect on engine performance and will also contribute to excessive fuel consumption. Electric chokes do malfunction.

Now, since you seem to know something about the electric choke, will the choke (enrichening system) effectiveness be eliminated if the choke is removed? If the choke is removed, would covering the hole with JB weld be all that is needed to seal the system? Also, there is a primer on the carb. In lieu of the choke, will the primer be sufficient for cold engine starts?

Thanks.
[/b][/quote]


Depends on how cold you are talking. With nothing more than a primer, it would fire and then die if used in cold weather. I think it would be pretty unforgiving in any climate, because you would have to let it warm up before you could go anywhere. If you hit the gas it would just die.

If you want a real fix, get a carb for an older model like an 04' They still had a cable choke. There were really no other significant changes in the carb than that. You would also need a cable and lever setup for an 04'

I have never had trouble getting one in gear from the choke operation unless the idle setting was set too high. It sounds to me like you have somewhat of an extreme case, or your idle may be set too high. I bet if you turn your idle setting down just even slightly, you will be suprised in the difference it makes.

Arctic Cat was simply trying to make them idiot proof with out the expence of fuel injection. They lisen to the wrong group of complaints in my opinion. Also the only time the enrichening valve/choke makes any significant difference in the fuel mixture is when the throttle is closed. Once you are moving it has little to no effect. So that throws poor performance and excessive fuel use out the window.

So in my opinion it is not really a problem.
[/b][/quote]

With regard to setting the idle screw, that goes without saying. If the freaking choke worked right, I wouldn't constantly adjusting the idle screw. Try adjusting your idle mixture screw to 2 1/2 - 3 turns out then set your idle speed with the engine warm at the recomended rpm. You should not need to mess with the speed all the time then

Pardon my ignorance but would you please explain how leaving the enrichening circuit engaged will not have an effect on fuel consumption or performance? Yes, when the throttle is open there is much greater air flow. The fuel added from the enrichening valve is combined with some air of its own, and the enrichening fuel circut is restricted to a pretty small hole. So when the throttle is opened there is no more additional fuel from the enrichening circut then their would be at an idle, which is very small ammount of fuel. This has little to no effect. The stock jetting is on the lean side anyway, so it certainly does not hurt. You might want to do a little homework in this regard. You might want to do the homework, I deal with this type of stuff every day! and not just on a Arctic Cat!

Below is a quote from a site that works with CV carbs. I've posted the full version previously.

4) Eliminate automatic choke. Most of the GY6 scooter engines seem to come equipped with the Keihin style CV carburetor with automatic choke. In theory, this is a nice feature - the choke turns on by itself when needed and then shuts itself off - assuming it all works properly. Unfortunately, the automatic choke on these carbs seems to have a tendency to stick ON at times. As a result, the air/fuel mixture will be way too rich. This KILLS performance. This is a pretty generalized quote, and yes, it will kill performance in the low throttle ranges, but at WOT it will not be really noticable
[/b][/quote]

Look man, Im not trying to say that auto chokes are gods gift to atv's! But they are not quite as bad as you guys describe! If you want to get rid of it go right ahead. Do a write up on how to do it. People will love it! But the auto choke has not been troublesome enough to go to all of that trouble (on a stock machine) in my opinion. I mean for christ sake, it is a Utility ATV not a race quad!
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<div align="center">White 03 Z-440 with American Flag Grafix

Engine: Wiseco 440 13.5:1 compression Ported n Polished HMF Sport Series (Full System)
Mikuni HS 40mm carb Aluminium air box K&N with outterware DRZ-E Kit
Kibbble White valves Old style Hot cams stage 2 DID 4/5 row timing chain

Electrical: Dyna Programable CDI Nology Hot Wire Trail Tech headlights Pro Design teather
Suspension: Fox Podium front shocks Burgard +2" chrome a-arms LSR +3" Axle
Other: MSR alluminium ATV high bends Full skids & Nerfs DG front bumper Custom pegs
Fully Gusseted and PC'd Frame Custom Dash Panel K&K radiator shrouds</div>
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